New hvac system - trane vs carrier (Dallas, Howe: appointed, loan)

[DallasHouzz]

We recently closed on the purchase of a 1964 1-story home in North Dallas and need to replace the woefully undersized 2-ton system.

The house is a 2,273SF Fox & Jacobs where the current ductwork is located in 2 t-shaped soffit tunnels running down 2 hallways. Pitiful small grills, only 1 return & furnace is in closet with hot water heater & can not be moved to attic as there are no load bearing walls.

We have had 2 companies out for quotes. One to quote Trane (we used this company 12 years ago at former home for new system & maintenance) & one to quote Carrier (highly rated company on Angie's List & top dealer on Carrier site).


Trane did not do heat load. They quoted 4 ton single stage. Carrier person did. They quoted 3 ton 2-speed system.


Have 2 very different proposals & we have no idea what to do or if we should get a 3rd company out.



We want to move forward soon so we can do this first before starting on paint, electrical, etc & we can have the soffits taken out & make ceilings higher in the 2 hallways & install recessed lighting.


However, I am shocked at the cost of doing one system even with costs of new ductwork.



Trane - $11,011 + electrician + new attic insulation (tbd assume same as Carrier estimate)
A/C: XR16 4 ton
Furnace: XT80
Coil: Trane 4 ton
Air Cleaner: Honeywell MERV 11 4"
Thermostat: none quoted - will use a Nest we have or get Honeywell Lyric when deployed
Duct: New plenum system 10 new R-8 Valve F;ex Duct, boots & grill supply air, add 1 new grill return air
Includes 1 year service agreement, insulated copper lineset, new pad (moving around the corner in back yard), electrical disconnect & conduit, etc
10 years parts & labor (quote says JB not sure what that means)
Does not include electrician to run new line outside to new unit.


Carrier - $12,718 + Electrician + $1,785 for R38 attic insulation - says we need it for 3 ton unit to perform efficiently
A/C: Carrier 3 ton Infinity 17-seer 2-speed 24ANB736
Coil: CNPVP
Furnace: 58CVA070
This subtotaled $10,425
Discount $1,043
Rebate: $500
Warranty: Temp Secure 10
Ducts: $3,835
Includes: wifi thermostat although not specified in quote (disappointed we can not use Nest)


This was the lowest Carrier quote of the 3 proposed for a 2-or-variable stage system. Add $3-6K for 19 seer variable speed unit or green speed unit. He did say we could do Performance single stage system for about $11,400 but I think warranties differ as well.



Both companies quoted their lower end product but there was not significant price difference.



We want to be comfortable but not to the point of paying for something that will take years to recoup our investment.




Is 16 or 17 seer minimum these days? Is 2-stage better than single stage?



Any advise or help will be greatly appreciated as well as recommended dealers.


Thanks.

[SouthernBelleInUtah]

R38 is minimum recommended attic insulation value. Don't know anything else.

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by DallasHouzz

We recently closed on the purchase of a 1964 1-story home in North Dallas and need to replace the woefully undersized 2-ton system.

The house is a 2,273SF Fox & Jacobs where the current ductwork is located in 2 t-shaped soffit tunnels running down 2 hallways. Pitiful small grills, only 1 return & furnace is in closet with hot water heater & can not be moved to attic as there are no load bearing walls.

We have had 2 companies out for quotes. One to quote Trane (we used this company 12 years ago at former home for new system & maintenance) & one to quote Carrier (highly rated company on Angie's List & top dealer on Carrier site).


Trane did not do heat load. They quoted 4 ton single stage. Carrier person did. They quoted 3 ton 2-speed system.


Have 2 very different proposals & we have no idea what to do or if we should get a 3rd company out.



We want to move forward soon so we can do this first before starting on paint, electrical, etc & we can have the soffits taken out & make ceilings higher in the 2 hallways & install recessed lighting.


However, I am shocked at the cost of doing one system even with costs of new ductwork.



Trane - $11,011 + electrician + new attic insulation (tbd assume same as Carrier estimate)
A/C: XR16 4 ton
Furnace: XT80
Coil: Trane 4 ton
Air Cleaner: Honeywell MERV 11 4"
Thermostat: none quoted - will use a Nest we have or get Honeywell Lyric when deployed
Duct: New plenum system 10 new R-8 Valve F;ex Duct, boots & grill supply air, add 1 new grill return air
Includes 1 year service agreement, insulated copper lineset, new pad (moving around the corner in back yard), electrical disconnect & conduit, etc
10 years parts & labor (quote says JB not sure what that means)
Does not include electrician to run new line outside to new unit.


Carrier - $12,718 + Electrician + $1,785 for R38 attic insulation - says we need it for 3 ton unit to perform efficiently
A/C: Carrier 3 ton Infinity 17-seer 2-speed 24ANB736
Coil: CNPVP
Furnace: 58CVA070
This subtotaled $10,425
Discount $1,043
Rebate: $500
Warranty: Temp Secure 10
Ducts: $3,835
Includes: wifi thermostat although not specified in quote (disappointed we can not use Nest)


This was the lowest Carrier quote of the 3 proposed for a 2-or-variable stage system. Add $3-6K for 19 seer variable speed unit or green speed unit. He did say we could do Performance single stage system for about $11,400 but I think warranties differ as well.



Both companies quoted their lower end product but there was not significant price difference.



We want to be comfortable but not to the point of paying for something that will take years to recoup our investment.




Is 16 or 17 seer minimum these days? Is 2-stage better than single stage?



Any advise or help will be greatly appreciated as well as recommended dealers.


Thanks.

I'd need a letter signed in blood from the Carrier guy promising that 3 tons is going to be enough for your 2,273sft. home. I know the square footage per ton metrics are out but come on that's 757sft/ton. Unless your house is flanked all around by trees or something those numbers don't make sense. I flatly don't believe 36,000 BTU of AC wouldl keep your home decently cool when it's 100-105F outside. Now if are OK augmenting that system with a little window unit for 15-60 days a year that's a different story.

[balthus99]

He's the one who did the load calc and he said that it came out to 2.8. Front door faces north along with large bay window in living/dining room. Home does not have tall ceilIngs. Den faces east with one window. No windows in kitchen. Back door and breakfast area window face south. Heavily treed back yard. Master faces south. No windows in the two baths. 2 bedrooms face west and the last one north. All these rooms have one fairly standard size window. Do you think we need 4 ton and if so single or variable speed? Also what about Lennox? Thanks.

[Restrain]

We recently had our home AC replaced. 2200 SF rambler built in1973. We zoned the system about 10 years ago due to low functionality and location of the system. Now have 2-2.5 ton systems. When the AC installer installed the system, he put in dampers on the new duct system so as to be able to balance the load. The AC return will pull the air from the nearest ducts, affecting the air flow at the furtherest end of the AC duct system.

The original system on my home was 3.5 ton, don't see how a 3 ton system would be sufficient for your home. However, both bids seem a bit high.

As to adding insulation, I installed 8" in my home for about $500. Bought the insulation at Big Box, 0 cost for blower as the store loaned us the store, got a handyman to go into the attic and I fed the insulation. But it really makes a difference.

Get some more bids before you pull the trigger. American Standard makes a good system as well, not paying for all the advertising.

Good luck

[balthus99]

My gut is that both quotes are high & any recommendations for companies who do great installs & service wold be appreciated. It's all the same equipment so I know the install is critical.

Does anyone have any feelings about Lennox as a brand?

What about single vs 2-or-variable speed?

Thanks.

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by balthus99

He's the one who did the load calc and he said that it came out to 2.8. Front door faces north along with large bay window in living/dining room. Home does not have tall ceilIngs. Den faces east with one window. No windows in kitchen. Back door and breakfast area window face south. Heavily treed back yard. Master faces south. No windows in the two baths. 2 bedrooms face west and the last one north. All these rooms have one fairly standard size window. Do you think we need 4 ton and if so single or variable speed? Also what about Lennox? Thanks.

He's also a pro and I'm a dude on the internet. I get all of that. However, I have an ac book that's no more than five years old.

It says we are in climate Zone 1 (the hottest). According to this book 3 tons of perfectly performing new AC will cool a very well insulated one story house (outside temp - 23 max when running 100% of the time, 105F - 23 = 82F in our house) that's 1501-1800 sqf. As a matter of fact it shows 2200 sqf being the max sq. for a 3 ton unit in Zone 5. Which includes North Dakota and Montana.

Concerning a load calculation the number of windows is important. But what also matters is how old are the windows, doors and how well insulated is your house overall not just the attic.

The charts shows 4 tons here will adequately cool 2100-2400 square feet here in zone 5.

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by balthus99

My gut is that both quotes are high & any recommendations for companies who do great installs & service wold be appreciated. It's all the same equipment so I know the install is critical.

Does anyone have any feelings about Lennox as a brand?

What about single vs 2-or-variable speed?

Thanks.

I've long been told the most critical element is the company doing the installation. If it's a great company, they will work with good equipment. Yes, there will be other considerations--some companies will provide better dealer incentives than others--but a great company will stand by what they install.

When I was in Illinois, one particular company in town got all the praise from everyone I spoke to. That company installed Lennox, and I got a multi-speed high-efficiency system that at the time was just below their geo-thermal system in efficiency.

Here in Dallas, I'm still looking for a solid recommendation for an installer. The one I hear most advertised has scary Internet user warnings.

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk

I've long been told the most critical element is the company doing the installation. If it's a great company, they will work with good equipment. Yes, there will be other considerations--some companies will provide better dealer incentives than others--but a great company will stand by what they install.

When I was in Illinois, one particular company in town got all the praise from everyone I spoke to. That company installed Lennox, and I got a multi-speed high-efficiency system that at the time was just below their geo-thermal system in efficiency.

Here in Dallas, I'm still looking for a solid recommendation for an installer. The one I hear most advertised has scary Internet user warnings.

A pal of mine has been in the business for 50+ years, started out working for his dad when he was 13. I'll dm you this guys' information.

[WorldKlas]

I just had installed a Trane 4T heat pump HVAC system in a 2050 sq ft one story house. The house has newly insulated attic with a radiant barrier and new ductwork so I didn't need that. The price, $3900 included installation and tax. But its a 13 seer. We had to have an electrician come out to lengthen the connecting wire. That cost s $170. DM me if you want HVAC company name.