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Old 03-01-2016, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Plano
718 posts, read 1,096,225 times
Reputation: 462

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Quote:
Originally Posted by H0mebuyer View Post
Frisco is a growing city with a huge school district and too many schools so zoning and rezoning is going to be an issue until they are completely built out or may be a part of life as demographics changes. It would take at least 5-10 years for district to settle. Once schools get older than repairs of that many buildings is going to be another pain in the a$$. Small school pilosophy doesn't work well for districts of this size.
Then , you are not aware on how works FISD. The budget is well thought and schools like Liberty ,Centennial, Wakeland already went through massive renovations in the last few years and they are not even 10 years old to provide better services and better facilities.The CTE building doubled its size this year. Frisco high , much older went through a total renovation last year, so your argument doesn't really work. Parents and kids love the small school 4 years high school system and most of us wouldn't mind to even pay more taxes if needed in the long run.
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Old 03-01-2016, 06:49 PM
 
294 posts, read 155,964 times
Reputation: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Souleiado View Post
Then , you are not aware on how works FISD. The budget is well thought and schools like Liberty ,Centennial, Wakeland already went through massive renovations in the last few years and they are not even 10 years old to provide better services and better facilities.The CTE building doubled its size this year. Frisco high , much older went through a total renovation last year, so your argument doesn't really work. Parents and kids love the small school 4 years high school system and most of us wouldn't mind to even pay more taxes if needed in the long run.
Agreed. what's wrong with small school size? Do the large schools have a drastically higher student-teacher ratio? If not, they have to have large numbers of classrooms and teachers anyway. Frisco has it spread over several campuses instead of one like Allen has.

The one problem I see in Frisco is that the whole city is a giant school zone, specially in east and south frisco, and it will get worse for the other parts as they build more schools. North Plano is not much better, but at least it has stabilized.
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Old 03-01-2016, 09:34 PM
 
3,293 posts, read 1,736,136 times
Reputation: 3656
I see people are still using SAT/PSAT scores to measure education quality at schools. For reasons I've outlined on this forum countless times, that is a terrible practice.

SAT/PSAT scores can tell you things about the students attending the school, but it won't tell you about the quality of education at the school.

I get the impression that a lot of parents on here think they are spending their money on buying Junior a higher chance at being a National Merit Semifinalist. You aren't. If you want your kid to do better on the PSAT, buy some PSAT tutoring. The school has almost nothing to do with it, and it probably has even less to do with SAT scores.

IMO, there probably would not be much of a difference in measurable outcomes for a given kid between any of the usual suspect schools. They are probably all good enough to give the kid a reasonable chance of fulfilling his or her potential. There is, however, a strong argument that a slightly weaker school might improve his or her class rank, resulting in a more competitive college application. Also in my opinion, most parents on this board are way too obsessed with this crap and need to find hobbies.
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Old 03-01-2016, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
472 posts, read 309,630 times
Reputation: 799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost View Post
I see people are still using SAT/PSAT scores to measure education quality at schools. For reasons I've outlined on this forum countless times, that is a terrible practice.

SAT/PSAT scores can tell you things about the students attending the school, but it won't tell you about the quality of education at the school.

I get the impression that a lot of parents on here think they are spending their money on buying Junior a higher chance at being a National Merit Semifinalist. You aren't. If you want your kid to do better on the PSAT, buy some PSAT tutoring. The school has almost nothing to do with it, and it probably has even less to do with SAT scores.

IMO, there probably would not be much of a difference in measurable outcomes for a given kid between any of the usual suspect schools. They are probably all good enough to give the kid a reasonable chance of fulfilling his or her potential. There is, however, a strong argument that a slightly weaker school might improve his or her class rank, resulting in a more competitive college application. Also in my opinion, most parents on this board are way too obsessed with this crap and need to find hobbies.

I am not a fan of using NMSF as some sort of school evaluation because as you note it tells you more about the kid than the school and it only tells you about a very small % of the kids at even the best schools.

Having said that, most parents are not evaluating the school's performance (that is the job of school administrators), they are evaluating the best school for their child and that is a critical difference.

While it may be true that if you could effectively control for individual child IQ and preparation that the quality of teaching and curriculum content might be identical between say HPISD and a median DISD school (not saying that is actually the case), that doesn't mean that they are equal choices for a child's education.

Peer group is important. Being surrounded by higher IQ and more affluent peers has long term benefits.

Long story short, in the absence of truly being able to evaluate each educator that may teach your child, looking at median SAT score is one of the few consistent methods available for evaluating the type of school experience that an individual child may have.
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Old 03-02-2016, 12:11 AM
 
3,293 posts, read 1,736,136 times
Reputation: 3656
Quote:
Originally Posted by NP78 View Post
Having said that, most parents are not evaluating the school's performance (that is the job of school administrators), they are evaluating the best school for their child and that is a critical difference.

While it may be true that if you could effectively control for individual child IQ and preparation that the quality of teaching and curriculum content might be identical between say HPISD and a median DISD school (not saying that is actually the case), that doesn't mean that they are equal choices for a child's education.

Peer group is important. Being surrounded by higher IQ and more affluent peers has long term benefits.
What are those benefits? I'm not asking for a comparison of Highland Park peers to South Oak Cliff peers. I'm asking what the long-term benefits of a kid having Highland Park peers versus say Flower Mound or Plano or Frisco peers?

It seems to me that parents who are interested in school quality should very much be in the business of evaluating a school's performance. Peer group probably matters to a point, but I can't imagine that the effect continues above the threshold provided by all of the usual suspect schools. In fact, I can imagine there might be some reasons one might not want his or her kids to have a peer group that is made up solely of extremely affluent folks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NP78 View Post
Long story short, in the absence of truly being able to evaluate each educator that may teach your child, looking at median SAT score is one of the few consistent methods available for evaluating the type of school experience that an individual child may have.
But SAT scores don't tell you much about the school experience your kid will have. They tell you about the kind of peers your kid will have, but that is a small part of the equation. They don't tell you anything about the quality of education provided at the school that you probably didn't already know. More importantly, that isn't the way these scores are used on this board. Read the last few pages of this thread. SAT scores are used here as a report card for schools. I've never seen a group of adults more obsessed with SAT scores than this board (and I used to be in the test prep industry). Unfortunately, most people who cite these scores the most often here have no idea what they actually mean.
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Old 03-02-2016, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
472 posts, read 309,630 times
Reputation: 799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost View Post
What are those benefits? I'm not asking for a comparison of Highland Park peers to South Oak Cliff peers. I'm asking what the long-term benefits of a kid having Highland Park peers versus say Flower Mound or Plano or Frisco peers?

It seems to me that parents who are interested in school quality should very much be in the business of evaluating a school's performance. Peer group probably matters to a point, but I can't imagine that the effect continues above the threshold provided by all of the usual suspect schools. In fact, I can imagine there might be some reasons one might not want his or her kids to have a peer group that is made up solely of extremely affluent folks.



But SAT scores don't tell you much about the school experience your kid will have. They tell you about the kind of peers your kid will have, but that is a small part of the equation. They don't tell you anything about the quality of education provided at the school that you probably didn't already know. More importantly, that isn't the way these scores are used on this board. Read the last few pages of this thread. SAT scores are used here as a report card for schools. I've never seen a group of adults more obsessed with SAT scores than this board (and I used to be in the test prep industry). Unfortunately, most people who cite these scores the most often here have no idea what they actually mean.

If you are comparing Frisco and Plano than I agree. Demographically similar entities. Those that are deciding between Frisco and Plano should probably spend more time debating their preferences in terms of school size (one key difference between the districts) than SAT score variances.

I would argue that HP is different and that there is tangible value in the networks and connections available in that group (same could be said for the "elite" privates).

Having said all of that, what is the best metric in your opinion for evaluating schools? I don't personally put a lot of stock into the state assessment tests and at least among public schools there are not significant differences in curriculum or class size (although there could be individual school offerings such as IB, broader range of AP courses, etc. that could be a valuable differentiating factor).
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:44 AM
 
3,293 posts, read 1,736,136 times
Reputation: 3656
Quote:
Originally Posted by NP78 View Post
If you are comparing Frisco and Plano than I agree. Demographically similar entities. Those that are deciding between Frisco and Plano should probably spend more time debating their preferences in terms of school size (one key difference between the districts) than SAT score variances.

I would argue that HP is different and that there is tangible value in the networks and connections available in that group (same could be said for the "elite" privates).
There are also major trade-offs with HP and elite privates. There will be very few minorities, and even less economic diversity. Those factors can play a big part in the development of a kid's worldview. I'm not saying that people shouldn't send their kids to HP or elite privates, but I'm not certain that peer group is a clear and obvious winner in those schools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NP78 View Post
Having said all of that, what is the best metric in your opinion for evaluating schools? I don't personally put a lot of stock into the state assessment tests and at least among public schools there are not significant differences in curriculum or class size (although there could be individual school offerings such as IB, broader range of AP courses, etc. that could be a valuable differentiating factor).
I think that for most usual suspect schools, it doesn't really matter too much which school a kid goes to. I think subjective assessments made by parents are probably useful enough, and school-specific offerings such as an IB program might justifiably be a far more important consideration than any quantitative metrics. In general, however, I think a lot of parents in northern suburbs make much ado about nothing.
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Old 03-02-2016, 01:55 PM
 
1,212 posts, read 1,772,643 times
Reputation: 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost View Post
I see people are still using SAT/PSAT scores to measure education quality at schools. For reasons I've outlined on this forum countless times, that is a terrible practice.

SAT/PSAT scores can tell you things about the students attending the school, but it won't tell you about the quality of education at the school.

I get the impression that a lot of parents on here think they are spending their money on buying Junior a higher chance at being a National Merit Semifinalist. You aren't. If you want your kid to do better on the PSAT, buy some PSAT tutoring. The school has almost nothing to do with it, and it probably has even less to do with SAT scores.

IMO, there probably would not be much of a difference in measurable outcomes for a given kid between any of the usual suspect schools. They are probably all good enough to give the kid a reasonable chance of fulfilling his or her potential. There is, however, a strong argument that a slightly weaker school might improve his or her class rank, resulting in a more competitive college application. Also in my opinion, most parents on this board are way too obsessed with this crap and need to find hobbies.

2/3 of all students at St Marks are NMSF. Do we think that those kids might have also been NMSF at other schools- possible, even probable, but you can never say for sure. What we do know about St. Marks is that the kids are pushed hard, at an earlier age, than at public schools. A St Marks 3rd grader is doing work that a 5th grader might do in public school. Moreover, at St. Marks the third grade class can move faster than most public schools because all of the students are bright, the class size are small, the teachers are at the top of their profession, the kids are emotionally mature enough to handle loads of homework, and parents make sure that their kids get their work done. The academic excellence is carried over to all facets of the school. However, if you want to know the strength of the school, don't look at just at NMSF, but also look at the extraordinary percentage of students that pass AP exams at St. Marks and the average number of AP credits that they graduate with each year. Finally, look at the college matriculation. Out of 85 kids, you will have 30 attend Ivy League (or similar schools) schools.
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Old 03-02-2016, 02:51 PM
 
3,293 posts, read 1,736,136 times
Reputation: 3656
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockDad View Post
2/3 of all students at St Marks are NMSF. Do we think that those kids might have also been NMSF at other schools- possible, even probable, but you can never say for sure. What we do know about St. Marks is that the kids are pushed hard, at an earlier age, than at public schools. A St Marks 3rd grader is doing work that a 5th grader might do in public school. Moreover, at St. Marks the third grade class can move faster than most public schools because all of the students are bright, the class size are small, the teachers are at the top of their profession, the kids are emotionally mature enough to handle loads of homework, and parents make sure that their kids get their work done. The academic excellence is carried over to all facets of the school. However, if you want to know the strength of the school, don't look at just at NMSF, but also look at the extraordinary percentage of students that pass AP exams at St. Marks and the average number of AP credits that they graduate with each year. Finally, look at the college matriculation. Out of 85 kids, you will have 30 attend Ivy League (or similar schools) schools.
Those are all good reasons to pick a school. NMSF numbers are not.

Btw, I do think it's highly probably that the vast majority of NMSF students at St. Marks would have been NMSF students at any of the other usual suspect schools. That doesn't mean St. Marks isn't a better school than the other usual suspect schools; it just means NMSF numbers aren't useful in figuring out which schools provide educations superior to the educations provided at other goods schools.
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Old 03-02-2016, 03:25 PM
 
1,212 posts, read 1,772,643 times
Reputation: 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost View Post
Those are all good reasons to pick a school. NMSF numbers are not.

Btw, I do think it's highly probably that the vast majority of NMSF students at St. Marks would have been NMSF students at any of the other usual suspect schools. That doesn't mean St. Marks isn't a better school than the other usual suspect schools; it just means NMSF numbers aren't useful in figuring out which schools provide educations superior to the educations provided at other goods schools.

NMSF is just one objective data point that people can utilize when evaluating schools. Should it be the only one, no. However, it should not be dismissed. As a father of one son that has graduated and gone through the college process, I assure you that college admission counselors are familiar with St. Marks, based in part, of its reputation of producing a higher percentage of NMSF than any other school in Texas. If 2/3 of yours students "ace" one of the three most important tests a high school kid can take, it is really hard to argue that the school is not excellent. Once again, I am not saying it is the end all test (personally, I like the percentage of kids that score a 4 or 5 on AP exams), but it also should not be dismissed.
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