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Old 03-05-2016, 08:22 AM
 
27 posts, read 19,729 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter5457 View Post
Plano kids dominate TAMS too and naturally form plano cliques which used to create problems in the past. Many are friends and went to school together in plano before moving to TAMS which begins in 11th grade. The math and science whiz kids in plano already know people going there or will be going there so it is easier for them to consider TAMS.
Exactly. Every year TAMS take away many of PISD's NMSF shoe ins who wants to be on university campus for research. PISD prepares them for 10 years and in 11th grade TAMS gets credit for their NMSF status.
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Old 03-05-2016, 12:01 PM
 
3,293 posts, read 1,736,967 times
Reputation: 3656
Quote:
Originally Posted by theloneranger View Post
It would be really nice if there were some sort of way to measure the value added by private schools or to compare across school districts. At least DISD has the (seriously flawed but workable) School Effectiveness Index to compare schools while offsetting demographics.

I agree strongly that the single biggest thing that a school's number of NMSFs tells us is the number of affluent parents who are sending their kids to that school. I would venture that 90% of NMSF students would have been NMSFs regardless of the school they attended, and that only a very small portion of non-NMSFs would have achieved NMSF if they were attending a different school. A parent who can afford prep classes can generally afford it regardless of where the kid is going to school.
Yes, I think this is spot-on. Conceptually, it would be nice to have a testing system that allowed us to "track" kids scores throughout their education and compare the rate of improvement on relevant tests to other kids in different schools. I think that is the holy grail of state testing, but there are too many variables involved for it to be useful.

I'm not sure what the answer is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltySugar View Post
If we go by affluence as the reason for high scores on standardized tests then Coppell and Plano must be whole lot affluent than Frisco, Prosper and Allen. Every private school kid should be acing these tests since those schools are very selective in picking smart and wealthy students. If nothing else then atleast 50% from top elites should make NMS.
1. There is no doubt that affluence is positively correlated with test scores. Zero doubt. It may not be a perfect 1.0 correlation, but it is quite high. Affluence is positively correlated with IQ, and IQ is very strongly correlated with test scores. We should expect IQ to be more correlated with test scores than income, however.

2. As has been pointed out, your 50% projection is silly high. NMSFs are rare enough that we shouldn't expect any group as large as an entire major school district to be half full of them. Also, I should point out that while income is correlated with IQ, that doesn't necessarily mean that the effect continues as strongly past a certain point. If you were to compare the IQs of all people making $200,000 to all people making $40,000, there is no doubt that the $200k group would be higher. However, the difference would likely be less pronounced if you were to compare $200k to $1 mil, even though there is a 5x difference in both groups. There are all sorts of explanations for this, but what is important is that there are strong explanations for why two similarly-affluent districts might have different average IQ scores, and as a result, different test scores.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newtohockaday View Post
And a lot of the NMSF in the elite privates do not come from the wealthiest families. And a substantial fraction of them live in Plano.
Elite privates are self-selecting for smart kids. Income only explains a portion of their high test scores.

Imagine I were to open a free academy that offered, with no doubt, the best education in the state. The only admissions criteria would be that I would accept the ten highest IQs out of all students tested. If every kid in the state took a test for me, would I see all rich kids in the top ten? Of course not. While income is correlated with IQ, there are so many more poor and middle class kids that the likelihood of outliers increases. Schools that offer great educations and merit-based financial aid see this same effect.

Also, "wealthiest" isn't that much more of a predictor of IQ than mere "wealthy enough." See my note on that in the above response.
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Old 03-06-2016, 06:13 PM
 
Location: The Village
1,622 posts, read 3,888,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltySugar View Post
Fair enough but then how do you explain Plano East beating Allen High, Prosper High and ALL Frisco Schools?
Plano East has an IB magnet program. I don't think most of the NMSFs at Plano East are from the east side, though I could be mistaken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newtohockaday View Post
And a lot of the NMSF in the elite privates do not come from the wealthiest families. And a substantial fraction of them live in Plano.


It's not a dollar-to-dollar correlation. I don't think a kid from a family with an income of $500k is substantially more likely to be an NMSF than one from a family which makes $600k. However, both of them are substantially more likely to be an NMSF than one from a family which makes $50k a year. There's probably some point at which additional dollars don't make that much of a difference. I don't know what that point is, but not being from the wealthiest family at Hockaday doesn't mean that the girl isn't from an incredibly affluent family.

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Old 03-06-2016, 06:15 PM
 
Location: The Village
1,622 posts, read 3,888,337 times
Reputation: 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost View Post

Elite privates are self-selecting for smart kids. Income only explains a portion of their high test scores.

Imagine I were to open a free academy that offered, with no doubt, the best education in the state. The only admissions criteria would be that I would accept the ten highest IQs out of all students tested. If every kid in the state took a test for me, would I see all rich kids in the top ten? Of course not. While income is correlated with IQ, there are so many more poor and middle class kids that the likelihood of outliers increases. Schools that offer great educations and merit-based financial aid see this same effect.

Also, "wealthiest" isn't that much more of a predictor of IQ than mere "wealthy enough." See my note on that in the above response.
I think it's pretty safe to say that the top decile would get more than one of the ten spots, though.
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Old 03-06-2016, 06:30 PM
 
3,293 posts, read 1,736,967 times
Reputation: 3656
Quote:
Originally Posted by theloneranger View Post
I think it's pretty safe to say that the top decile would get more than one of the ten spots, though.
Yes, of course. I didn't imply otherwise. I would expect the top decile to make up far more than just one in ten.
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