2016 National Merit Semi-Finalists (Plano, Allen, Coppell: safe, wealthiest, campus)

[numbersguy100]

Originally Posted by HockDad

NMSF is just one objective data point that people can utilize when evaluating schools. Should it be the only one, no. However, it should not be dismissed. As a father of one son that has graduated and gone through the college process, I assure you that college admission counselors are familiar with St. Marks, based in part, of its reputation of producing a higher percentage of NMSF than any other school in Texas. If 2/3 of yours students "ace" one of the three most important tests a high school kid can take, it is really hard to argue that the school is not excellent. Once again, I am not saying it is the end all test (personally, I like the percentage of kids that score a 4 or 5 on AP exams), but it also should not be dismissed.

The AP test metric is probably more reliable/accurate, but much harder to come by.

[gsoy]

Do you mean 1/3 of St. Marks' students are NMSF? 2/3 seems very high.

Originally Posted by HockDad

NMSF is just one objective data point that people can utilize when evaluating schools. Should it be the only one, no. However, it should not be dismissed. As a father of one son that has graduated and gone through the college process, I assure you that college admission counselors are familiar with St. Marks, based in part, of its reputation of producing a higher percentage of NMSF than any other school in Texas. If 2/3 of yours students "ace" one of the three most important tests a high school kid can take, it is really hard to argue that the school is not excellent. Once again, I am not saying it is the end all test (personally, I like the percentage of kids that score a 4 or 5 on AP exams), but it also should not be dismissed.

[Wittgenstein's Ghost]

Originally Posted by HockDad

NMSF is just one objective data point that people can utilize when evaluating schools. Should it be the only one, no. However, it should not be dismissed. As a father of one son that has graduated and gone through the college process, I assure you that college admission counselors are familiar with St. Marks, based in part, of its reputation of producing a higher percentage of NMSF than any other school in Texas. If 2/3 of yours students "ace" one of the three most important tests a high school kid can take, it is really hard to argue that the school is not excellent. Once again, I am not saying it is the end all test (personally, I like the percentage of kids that score a 4 or 5 on AP exams), but it also should not be dismissed.

The SAT correlates extremely well with IQ. In fact, IQ is as good of a predictor of SAT scores as a previous SAT score from the same student. The school one attends, so long as it meets a certain minimum threshold, has almost zero influence on SAT scores unless that school is providing SAT-specific preparation courses. I've explained why on this board before, but here it is in a nutshell: The SAT is designed to test basic concepts in tricky ways that require a great deal of reasoning. It is a reasoning test, not a subject matter test. This sort of reasoning closely approximates general intelligence, and outside of SAT-specific prep, this sort of reasoning ability is typically not produced in the school setting. The math section has very little content above Algebra 1; for advanced kids, that is middle school content. The SAT will take Algebra 1 concepts and craft problems that kids who are acing Calculus will get wrong. Again, the type of thing tested on the SAT is very different than the type of thing taught and tested in the school setting. This concept extends, perhaps to an even greater extent, into the other two sections of the test as well.

Again, SAT scores are useful in determining something about the student body attending a school -- IQ, and by extension, socio-economic demographics. They say nothing about the education quality at the school that you probably didn't already know.

[theloneranger]

Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost

I see people are still using SAT/PSAT scores to measure education quality at schools. For reasons I've outlined on this forum countless times, that is a terrible practice.

SAT/PSAT scores can tell you things about the students attending the school, but it won't tell you about the quality of education at the school.

I get the impression that a lot of parents on here think they are spending their money on buying Junior a higher chance at being a National Merit Semifinalist. You aren't. If you want your kid to do better on the PSAT, buy some PSAT tutoring. The school has almost nothing to do with it, and it probably has even less to do with SAT scores.

IMO, there probably would not be much of a difference in measurable outcomes for a given kid between any of the usual suspect schools. They are probably all good enough to give the kid a reasonable chance of fulfilling his or her potential. There is, however, a strong argument that a slightly weaker school might improve his or her class rank, resulting in a more competitive college application. Also in my opinion, most parents on this board are way too obsessed with this crap and need to find hobbies.

It would be really nice if there were some sort of way to measure the value added by private schools or to compare across school districts. At least DISD has the (seriously flawed but workable) School Effectiveness Index to compare schools while offsetting demographics.

I agree strongly that the single biggest thing that a school's number of NMSFs tells us is the number of affluent parents who are sending their kids to that school. I would venture that 90% of NMSF students would have been NMSFs regardless of the school they attended, and that only a very small portion of non-NMSFs would have achieved NMSF if they were attending a different school. A parent who can afford prep classes can generally afford it regardless of where the kid is going to school.

[SaltySugar]

If we go by affluence as the reason for high scores on standardized tests then Coppell and Plano must be whole lot affluent than Frisco, Prosper and Allen. Every private school kid should be acing these tests since those schools are very selective in picking smart and wealthy students. If nothing else then atleast 50% from top elites should make NMS.

[theloneranger]

Originally Posted by SaltySugar

If we go by affluence as the reason for high scores on standardized tests then Coppell and Plano must be whole lot affluent than Frisco, Prosper and Allen. Every private school kid should be acing these tests since those schools are very selective in picking smart and wealthy students. If nothing else then atleast 50% from top elites should make NMS.

No, that's absurd. "Much higher success rate" =/= 50% passing. Roughly 1% of students statewide get NMSF status. It just isn't feasible for any school, even TAMS, to have a 100% success rate. At the elite privates, the number is usually around 10% IIRC (St. Mark's 1/3 this year was an outlier). A rate ten times higher is statistically significant and can absolutely be attributed to affluence, along with a few other factors like academic selectivity.

Coppell and West Plano are more affluent than Frisco, Allen, and Prosper, at least according to the latest stats I've seen.

[SaltySugar]

Coppell and West Plano are more affluent than Frisco, Allen, and Prosper, at least according to the latest stats I've seen.

Fair enough but then how do you explain Plano East beating Allen High, Prosper High and ALL Frisco Schools?

[Peter5457]

Most of the nmsf from plano west HS probably do not live in the wealthy West Plano hood. I think they live in the middle class hoods in central plano but are zoned to the West HS. Basically, more of them come from Jasper HS in central plano and not from Shepton HS in west plano.

[newtohockaday]

And a lot of the NMSF in the elite privates do not come from the wealthiest families. And a substantial fraction of them live in Plano.

[Peter5457]

Originally Posted by newtohockaday

And a lot of the NMSF in the elite privates do not come from the wealthiest families. And a substantial fraction of them live in Plano.

Plano kids dominate TAMS too and naturally form plano cliques which used to create problems in the past. Many are friends and went to school together in plano before moving to TAMS which begins in 11th grade. The math and science whiz kids in plano already know people going there or will be going there so it is easier for them to consider TAMS.