U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Texas > Dallas
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 09-09-2015, 10:58 PM
 
236 posts, read 1,024,645 times
Reputation: 115

Advertisements

During our house hunt, we've come across a few houses that seem pretty far from, yet still zoned to Lakewood Elementary.

Specifically some homes in the 75214 zip code closer to NW Highway (University Terrace).

Upon some research, we've heard of some possible rezoning because Lakewood Elementary has gotten so overcrowded. Wondering what this process would entail and I'm assuming it'd raise huge uproar with parents/families in areas that do get zoned out.

Or is this just not going to happen? I don't know how this stuff typically works or how feasible it really is.
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-10-2015, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Yankee loves Dallas
552 posts, read 731,263 times
Reputation: 730
I don't have an answer to your question... But I will say: I've heard these rumors for years. (I'm in this situation: south of Gaston.)

I think that for as long as the school is overcrowded, those rumors will keep popping up now and then. I think every good school inside the 635 loop faces that pressure, because there are so few of them (HPISD building a new elementary school).

And (unlike ISD boundaries which I assume are virtually impossible to change), individual school zone boundaries can be changed whenever the board votes to do so. So I don't think the rumor/fear is going to go away, unless / until the school completes a big addition and is no longer overcrowded with students in trailers. It would still be a huge school though.

I do think that a huge number of homeowners / families north of Mockingbird and south of Gaston bought specifically for the school. It seems likely to me that proportionally, there might be even more "distant" families with elementary kids (i.e. in the "marginal" areas north of Mockingbird and south of Gaston), than there are in Lakewood proper -- if the higher prices in Lakewood proper mean that the families there are older and wealthier, with older kids, and/or are more likely to go private because wealthier. Whenever "Lakewood proper" people post here (with the exception of Lakewooder), they all seem to testify to many of their neighbors "going private"...


So any effort to change the boundaries, I assume, would ignite an opposition of terrible, ferocious wrath -- because even families without kids would realize that a huge chunk of their equity would be wiped out instantly. That's why I assume that the trustees would do that only as a last resort. (I believe there was a quote from trustee Micciche or Morath to that effect - I get those two guys confused.) Although there are plenty of trustees whose core values seem to include "screw the rich white people" and would be happy to do so.

Also, to the extent that Mata Montessori (and Lindsley Park charter) draw in local families, that would take pressure off too...

The boundaries do change from time to time. Compare the 2005 and 2015 boundaries for Lakewood.

2005 http://www.dallasisd.org/cms/lib/TX0...kewood2005.pdf
2015 http://www.dallasisd.org/cms/lib/TX0...kewood2015.pdf

Between 2005 and 2015, the exclave north of NW Hwy btw. Abrams/Skillman was removed from Lakewood, along with the apartments southeast of East Grand between White Rock Creek and the Santa Fe Trail. Meanhile, the Hillside neighborhood (north of Mockingbird, south of the tracks) was actually added during that time. The last time I checked the Wikipedia entry for the school, there was a citation to old Dallas Morning News story about how the Lakewood families had successfully fended off an effort by the board to "draw in" some low-income apartments to the zone. Meanwhile, the website for the Hollywood/Santa Monica neighborhood association boasts about how, at one point, they persuaded the board to add them to the Lakewood zone.

The common theme in all of the incidents that I listed above is maneuvering to keep "apartment kids" out, and homeowners in. As the lower-income kids leave the school, this makes for "better" numerical ratings for the school, which leads to a cycle of more homeowners with kids buying into the zone. That in turn leads to the eventual overcrowding that we see today. There's inherently no long-term stability in the public school situation, in any city with wide economic disparities, as homeowners maneuver to avoid apartment-dwellers, and the bureaucracy and courts try to bring them together...

Anyway, no real information to share, just fevered speculation...

Last edited by Walter Benjamin; 09-10-2015 at 07:57 AM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-10-2015, 12:50 PM
 
16,092 posts, read 35,775,631 times
Reputation: 6264
Where are the "apartment kids" they are trying to keep out of Lakewood Elementary?
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-10-2015, 11:55 PM
 
236 posts, read 1,024,645 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Benjamin View Post
I don't have an answer to your question... But I will say: I've heard these rumors for years. (I'm in this situation: south of Gaston.)

I think that for as long as the school is overcrowded, those rumors will keep popping up now and then. I think every good school inside the 635 loop faces that pressure, because there are so few of them (HPISD building a new elementary school).

And (unlike ISD boundaries which I assume are virtually impossible to change), individual school zone boundaries can be changed whenever the board votes to do so. So I don't think the rumor/fear is going to go away, unless / until the school completes a big addition and is no longer overcrowded with students in trailers. It would still be a huge school though.

I do think that a huge number of homeowners / families north of Mockingbird and south of Gaston bought specifically for the school. It seems likely to me that proportionally, there might be even more "distant" families with elementary kids (i.e. in the "marginal" areas north of Mockingbird and south of Gaston), than there are in Lakewood proper -- if the higher prices in Lakewood proper mean that the families there are older and wealthier, with older kids, and/or are more likely to go private because wealthier. Whenever "Lakewood proper" people post here (with the exception of Lakewooder), they all seem to testify to many of their neighbors "going private"...


So any effort to change the boundaries, I assume, would ignite an opposition of terrible, ferocious wrath -- because even families without kids would realize that a huge chunk of their equity would be wiped out instantly. That's why I assume that the trustees would do that only as a last resort. (I believe there was a quote from trustee Micciche or Morath to that effect - I get those two guys confused.) Although there are plenty of trustees whose core values seem to include "screw the rich white people" and would be happy to do so.

Also, to the extent that Mata Montessori (and Lindsley Park charter) draw in local families, that would take pressure off too...

The boundaries do change from time to time. Compare the 2005 and 2015 boundaries for Lakewood.

2005 http://www.dallasisd.org/cms/lib/TX0...kewood2005.pdf
2015 http://www.dallasisd.org/cms/lib/TX0...kewood2015.pdf

Between 2005 and 2015, the exclave north of NW Hwy btw. Abrams/Skillman was removed from Lakewood, along with the apartments southeast of East Grand between White Rock Creek and the Santa Fe Trail. Meanhile, the Hillside neighborhood (north of Mockingbird, south of the tracks) was actually added during that time. The last time I checked the Wikipedia entry for the school, there was a citation to old Dallas Morning News story about how the Lakewood families had successfully fended off an effort by the board to "draw in" some low-income apartments to the zone. Meanwhile, the website for the Hollywood/Santa Monica neighborhood association boasts about how, at one point, they persuaded the board to add them to the Lakewood zone.

The common theme in all of the incidents that I listed above is maneuvering to keep "apartment kids" out, and homeowners in. As the lower-income kids leave the school, this makes for "better" numerical ratings for the school, which leads to a cycle of more homeowners with kids buying into the zone. That in turn leads to the eventual overcrowding that we see today. There's inherently no long-term stability in the public school situation, in any city with wide economic disparities, as homeowners maneuver to avoid apartment-dwellers, and the bureaucracy and courts try to bring them together...

Anyway, no real information to share, just fevered speculation...


Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-14-2015, 04:21 PM
 
16,092 posts, read 35,775,631 times
Reputation: 6264
Since the article you cited What LEEF means for Lakewood Elementary boundaries - Lakewood was written, all of the proposed solutions to relieve overcrowding at Lakewood have come to pass - additions to Lakewood (and Stonewall) are ready to start construction, Mata is a Montessori magnet for the Long and Woodrow feeder pattern, and Lee and Lipscomb are getting IB. There are actually people transferring to those schools from Lakewood. Not a huge number, but I see it growing personally. As far as Long and Woodrow, they are each again getting large additions if the November bond program is passed. The density in student population is not to the north; it is to the south. So say, they rezoned University Terrace to Rogers - it would not have a big effect. Rogers is part of the Hillcrest feeder pattern, which is now overcrowded and HHS is getting a large addition in the new bond program. Hillcrest is also presently pursuing IB and I believe one of its elementary schools is already certified. IB will probably bring more enrollment to the school and feeder pattern, as it has at Long and Woodrow.

So I'm pretty confident the boundaries are not going to change. Can you imagine the uproar? The school board will cave under such pressure. They voted unanimously to fund the bridge program (additions) for Stonewall and Lakewood, despite a few naysayers.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-14-2015, 05:29 PM
 
233 posts, read 221,170 times
Reputation: 130
IB is such an overrated program. I don't know if its even the right path to rescue a feeder but obviously DISD is desperate.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-14-2015, 05:53 PM
 
7,279 posts, read 8,112,371 times
Reputation: 5366
Quote:
Originally Posted by DallasG View Post
IB is such an overrated program. I don't know if its even the right path to rescue a feeder but obviously DISD is desperate.
I tend to agree with you.

1. DSID is desperate.


2. IB is overrated......IB is more of a US phenomenon that most people know or want to admit. While SAT/ACT scores of IB participants and those granted diplomas are solid, actually very good, they are not fabulous as so many supporters imply.

Frankly that's why IB isn't much of a player at solid private schools.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2015, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Yankee loves Dallas
552 posts, read 731,263 times
Reputation: 730
I wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Benjamin View Post

The boundaries do change from time to time. Compare the 2005 and 2015 boundaries for Lakewood.

2005 http://www.dallasisd.org/cms/lib/TX0...kewood2005.pdf
2015 http://www.dallasisd.org/cms/lib/TX0...kewood2015.pdf

Between 2005 and 2015, the exclave north of NW Hwy btw. Abrams/Skillman was removed from Lakewood, along with the apartments southeast of East Grand between White Rock Creek and the Santa Fe Trail. Meanhile, the Hillside neighborhood (north of Mockingbird, south of the tracks) was actually added during that time. The last time I checked the Wikipedia entry for the school, there was a citation to old Dallas Morning News story about how the Lakewood families had successfully fended off an effort by the board to "draw in" some low-income apartments to the zone.

Lakewooder asked:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakewooder View Post
Where are the "apartment kids" they are trying to keep out of Lakewood Elementary?

I thought the references were pretty clear... I was talking about apartments that had been removed from the zone over the past many years... but for the record:

1) attached are screen grabs of the two areas I mentioned that were removed from the zone between 2005 and 2015: first, the area north of Northwest Highway, and second, east of East Grand. Both contain apartments.

2) I found the Wikipedia article I mentioned -- the entry for Lakewood Elementary which has since been deleted and merged into the entry for DISD. The archived version is here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20111207...(Dallas,_Texas)

It reads, in part:
"In 1989, after White American parents campaigned for changes in attendance boundaries, Dallas ISD redrew the school attendance boundaries for Lakewood and other elementary schools. This led to controversy, as Ed Cloutman, the attorney for the plaintiffs represented in the Dallas ISD desegregation case, believed that Dallas ISD was re-segregating student populations by race.."
The footnote goes to this 1989 Dallas Morning News article
Archives | The Dallas Morning News, dallasnews.com

That begins:
The Dallas school board realigned attendance zones for several North Dallas elementary schools Tuesday night amid protests from dozens of Anglo parents who did not want apartment complexes included in their zone.
Ed Cloutman, attorney for the plaintiffs in the district's desegregation case, immediately criticized the changes as creating "one of the most white schools in the district.'
And includes the sentence:
The high school could be turned into an elementary school to halt busing of Fannin Elementary students to Lakewood Elementary.
I read "halt busing of Fannin Elementary students" and "protests from dozens of Anglo parents" as "trying to get fewer apartment kids" ... but I could be wrong!

However I do think it is clear that the "market's desirability" of Lakewood Elementary is closely related to the fact that it has the fewest low-income students in DISD, by far.

To be clear, I am not claiming that it is good or bad, one way or the other, that affluent parents, in the aggregate, seem to do everything they can to keep their kids out of lower-income schools -- across the United States, as well as in DFW and in Lakewood. But I do argue that recognizing this principle: 1) accurately describes the behavior of affluent parents in the aggregate, 2) hence predicts the market value of homes in school zones and 3) predicts the "quality" of so-called "good schools" which almost always basically measures affluence. In spite of much rhetoric and lofty discourse to the contrary...
Attached Thumbnails
Chance of Lakewood Elementary Rezoning?-capture2.jpg   Chance of Lakewood Elementary Rezoning?-capture.jpg  
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2015, 04:19 PM
 
16,092 posts, read 35,775,631 times
Reputation: 6264
The area north of Northwest Highway, west of Abrams is really nowhere near Lakewood Elementary - which has never had any territory west of Abrams in its attendance zone. Both Rogers and Hotchkiss are much closer. That may have been temporary to fufill the busing into Lakewood or before several schools were built in Vickery Meadows to meet demand. There was also a situation where part of that area was zoned to Bryan Adams (prior, it was Hillcrest, now it's the "new" Conrad feeder pattern).

The area east of East Grand is a legitimate argument, though there aren't large numbers of children in those apartments (my observation, as I know people who live there) nor are there as many units as say the ones in LH. And now they go to Mata, which has been transformed into a Montessori School or Mount Auburn, which has a special new STEAM program. Originally, they were zoned to Lipscomb. It was a bit of a controversy to build and zone Mata in that location, but it was put there because it was one of the few places with vacant land.

Not sure why you are going to so much trouble to try to impugn the parents of Lakewood. It's very clear that they fought the desegregation order, but it was to PRESERVE the natural integration in the Woodrow feeder pattern and they also fought to keep the mostly African-American area called Owenwood, which is off Dolpin Road south of I-30.

Desegregation plaintiff attorney Ed Cloutman in fact, sent his own children (and now his grandchildren) to Lipscomb, Long and Woodrow.

We pride ourselves on not saying "apartment kids" as do those in other areas...

Last edited by Lakewooder; 09-17-2015 at 04:53 PM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2015, 04:59 PM
 
16,092 posts, read 35,775,631 times
Reputation: 6264
More info on Dan D. Rogers Elementary personalized learning/choice/innovation school:


Introducing the new Dan D. Rogers Elementary - Lakewood

Open houses on September 16 and October 1st.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Texas > Dallas
View detailed profiles of:
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top