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Old 11-22-2016, 08:09 AM
 
551 posts, read 1,099,066 times
Reputation: 695

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
You should do a few hours of reading and then edit the above because you are blaming the city erroneously. The state legislature came up with the rosy investment guarantees/projections - not Dallas.
Ok state not city. Point is some wise government entity set up a system that let people go gambling with the firefighter and cops money and now we are all screwed. Either we foot the bill somehow or lose all credibility with out fire and law enforcement. They should have been given 401ks to manage themselves like everyone else rather and try to play big brother, " know what's best for your money"
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Old 11-22-2016, 08:40 AM
 
1,429 posts, read 1,777,985 times
Reputation: 2733
Quote:
Originally Posted by pharpe View Post
Ok state not city. Point is some wise government entity set up a system that let people go gambling with the firefighter and cops money and now we are all screwed. Either we foot the bill somehow or lose all credibility with out fire and law enforcement. They should have been given 401ks to manage themselves like everyone else rather and try to play big brother, " know what's best for your money"
They did control their money. They elected a controlling number of the board seats. I completely agree that this should long ago have been converted to defined contribution 401k/403b, but we should not pretend that some outside force made these bad decisions. Real people made them, and those people were put in place by the police and firefighters themselves.
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Old 11-22-2016, 12:09 PM
 
631 posts, read 885,109 times
Reputation: 1266
Trying to beat the market is a fool's errand (And I mean actually trying, not using your role as a trustee to go "evaluate" an investment opportunity in Zurich). Unless you're Warren Buffet, S&P index funds are the way to go. Guaranteeing that you will consistently beat the market, and designing a pension system around that notion is asinine. The solution here better not be a bailout. I'm not going to get put on the hook for these mistakes.
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:51 AM
 
165 posts, read 196,863 times
Reputation: 201
Is Dallas a sanctuary city? If so, yeah it's going bankrupt.
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:06 AM
 
37,315 posts, read 59,869,570 times
Reputation: 25341
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakeside15 View Post
Is Dallas even obligated to pay this? Even if so, this is just a scare tactic to sell to taxpayers. If Dallas does end up paying, I would imagine it would be over a number of years and not all at once.
Did you even read the article posted on the link??
Of course it is the city's obligation---they are city employees!

Points that are relevant...
The article points the finger at police and fire unions that have forced the city to agree to unreasonable pension levels....
I approve of unions for collective bargaining against the businesses that often take advantage of employees but I think there have been enough documented examples of police and fire employees who have fraudulently padded their salaries by forging overtime schedules and other illegal behavior in order to justify higher salaries and thus higher pensions....
The city should have had a much more rigorous auditing system in place for decades but that didn't happen.
It may be that bankruptcy is the only way to revise the broken system...
Newer employees will pay for the ones who have enjoyed the benefits of a system on steroids...
And this article isn't even about their health care...just pension...

There is also a common practice in accounting that projects too high a return on investments and thus fails to show how solvent an investment/retirement fund really is when an oversight agency calculates the ROI and longevity for payout...
Basically it allows magical thinking in calculating a return of 7-8-10% annual return when the real return is much less...
This practice is so widespread across the nation in public and private pension fund accounting that almost any fund is coming up short...
Read article about a CA public employee agency which had similar problem w/small group of employees...

This problem is endemic...and some people have benefitted from it for years during a stronger economy...
Now due to aging of employment ranks and the reduced interest rates that are likely to continue for a decade according to economists, it will not go away and it can't be avoided...
Math can be bent only so far...eventually real money is needed or checks bounce...
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Old 11-27-2016, 04:01 PM
 
19,793 posts, read 18,085,519 times
Reputation: 17279
Quote:
Originally Posted by numbersguy100 View Post
They did control their money. They elected a controlling number of the board seats. I completely agree that this should long ago have been converted to defined contribution 401k/403b, but we should not pretend that some outside force made these bad decisions. Real people made them, and those people were put in place by the police and firefighters themselves.
Well said.
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Old 11-27-2016, 04:03 PM
 
19,793 posts, read 18,085,519 times
Reputation: 17279
Quote:
Originally Posted by loves2read View Post
Did you even read the article posted on the link??
Of course it is the city's obligation---they are city employees!

Points that are relevant...
The article points the finger at police and fire unions that have forced the city to agree to unreasonable pension levels....
I approve of unions for collective bargaining against the businesses that often take advantage of employees but I think there have been enough documented examples of police and fire employees who have fraudulently padded their salaries by forging overtime schedules and other illegal behavior in order to justify higher salaries and thus higher pensions....
The city should have had a much more rigorous auditing system in place for decades but that didn't happen.
It may be that bankruptcy is the only way to revise the broken system...
Newer employees will pay for the ones who have enjoyed the benefits of a system on steroids...
And this article isn't even about their health care...just pension...

There is also a common practice in accounting that projects too high a return on investments and thus fails to show how solvent an investment/retirement fund really is when an oversight agency calculates the ROI and longevity for payout...
Basically it allows magical thinking in calculating a return of 7-8-10% annual return when the real return is much less...
This practice is so widespread across the nation in public and private pension fund accounting that almost any fund is coming up short...
Read article about a CA public employee agency which had similar problem w/small group of employees...

This problem is endemic...and some people have benefitted from it for years during a stronger economy...
Now due to aging of employment ranks and the reduced interest rates that are likely to continue for a decade according to economists, it will not go away and it can't be avoided...
Math can be bent only so far...eventually real money is needed or checks bounce...
Except legally it isn't the city's obligation. They/we may well step up and back-stop the shortfall but according to the mayor, the city attorney, city-manager and others the city is not legally bound to save the P&F pension.
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Old 11-27-2016, 05:48 PM
 
37,315 posts, read 59,869,570 times
Reputation: 25341
This is letter from State Rep to Dallas MayorHe certainly seems to think the City does have responsibility and not just in sense of a decent plan to hire ongoing employment vacancies for police n fire
https://www.dpfp.org/images/PDFs/New...ayorLetter.pdf
It is from the Dallas fire/police pension site
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Old 11-27-2016, 08:33 PM
 
19,793 posts, read 18,085,519 times
Reputation: 17279
Quote:
Originally Posted by loves2read View Post
This is letter from State Rep to Dallas MayorHe certainly seems to think the City does have responsibility and not just in sense of a decent plan to hire ongoing employment vacancies for police n fire
https://www.dpfp.org/images/PDFs/New...ayorLetter.pdf
It is from the Dallas fire/police pension site
1). Lifted from an Observer piece. I can't seem to link it for whatever reason.

Warren Ernst, Dallas City Attorney - "The city has made all contractually required contributions and has previously taken the position that it is not legally obligated to fund any additional amounts," he said. "Contributions to the Police and Fire Pension System are governed by state statute. The contributions are dependent on the level of member contributions and are unrelated to unfunded accrued liability amounts."

2). The Police and Fire people are working like mad to convince others that the city can/should/must cover the shortfall the P&F people created.
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Old 11-28-2016, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Irving, TX
692 posts, read 855,558 times
Reputation: 1173
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Let's tap the brake.

1. The City of Dallas per se had very little to do with all of this. The police and firemen wanted a separate retirement system almost totally divorced from the city.

2. At one time the police and fire retirement system was very well run and making money.

3. As the '08/'09 bust rolled in things got weird. A guy named Richard Tettamant ran the pension system for many years and was fired in '14. The offices have been raided by The FBI, there are suits and counter suits - it's a big mess. It appears Tettamant at the very best invested in some losers and then began to chase returns taking bigger and bigger risks mostly in luxury real estate. FWIIW Museum Tower really wasn't/isn't part of the problem real estate. Lodges and hideaways in Arizona and Hawaii and really goofy institutional investing were.

Editorial: Dallas Police and Fire Pension Fund needs new leader | Editorials | Dallas News

3.1. It's crucial to understand Tettamant was not employed or hired or overseen by the city and he ran the police and fire pension fund to a great extent by himself although he claims the pension board made all investing decisions. That seems like a reach.

4. Now that the fund is on a collision course with bankruptcy the police and fire rank and file are looking for a monster bailout.

5. Frankly, if I was in charge I'd tell them to pound sand.
^This, this, this.

Also, EDS and I agree on something. It's the apocalypse.
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