National Merit Semifinalists 2018 (Canadian, Rice: legal, estate, campus)

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by jiping

This is where things become disgraceful and ugly.
They are applying a racial quota, but they don't want to admit. How are admissions officers going to justify themselves then? Only by using textbook racial stereotyping and profiling to demean certain racial groups.

That's why I would rather Ivies and many other colleges apply a transparent racial quota system. It's good for everybody.

I agree with you. First it is shameful, sad and nasty that somehow we've - society - worked ourselves into such a knot that it is OK to blatantly and openly stereotype Asians. I've spent a good deal of time in academia and I've heard all this stuff over and over.

Are all great at math but don't write well
Asians aren't good athletes
Don't work well in groups
They are alway geeks
They won't assimilate
Asian men are overt misogynists

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by BLDSoon

Okay, so let me put it this way..,

Is there a mathematical, merit based bias against asians in the college admissions process? Yes there probably is. Because no college anywhere will admit students based on merit alone even if they wanted to. Given that fact, Asians who are a high performing group will notice collectively higher scores creates a disadvantage mathematically. Yes absolutely.

Institutionally however, no there is no bias imho because every group has a disadvantage that is outside of their control. Assuming all scores are exceptional in ranges typical of that group; Caucasian kids have a history of advantages not of their own making to contend with, African-American kids have Achievement gaps also not of their own making, Hispanic kids are a mixed bag but mostly share Achievement gaps for similar reasons as African American kids, as do Native American kids. So admissions officers have the difficult task of determining which kids get in in spite or because of the various biases against them. Its no easy task; some qualified kids of whatever stripe are bound to get left behind in favor of others they may deem less so for whatever reason. Its not the end of the world. Those with high scores are bound to get in elsewhere. College admissions aren’t purely a merit-based system. The sooner that is understood the sooner all can move on with life after NMSF. I don’t believe there is a grand scheme to lower the number of Asian kids in college. I think what these schools are trying to do is keep their schools from being for just for one type of student.


At the end of the day, IQ and testing ability do not correlate with achievement in the real world. Colleges know this. They simply want kids who can do the work. And if a particular school feels that a Med school kid that got an MCAT in the 61st percentile can practice medicine the same as one in the 99th percentile, that’s their decision to make. The two may go into different specialties based on ability but at the end of the day, can they both become effective doctors? Chances are yes, they can.

Within your first two points I'm lost. It seems you are saying there is institutionalized bias in admissions and then saying there isn't. Did I miss something?

Your last point that IQ and test taking ability don't correlate with achievement in the real world is utterly and provably incorrect.

1). An assumption. I'd be stunned if there is a single MD in the country with an IQ at or below the national mean. Frankly, I don't know that a person of precisely average intelligence or below would be able to complete pre-medical undergrad requirements well enough to get into a medical school at all.

2). The proof. When broken down into quintiles or similar IQ in particular tracks income, educational attainment
and wealth very well. And further test results, of the kind we are talking about, are near IQ proxies themselves.

There's lots of data on this............. much of it broaches some very uncomfortable racial issues that are way beyond the scope and ability of this board. If you'd like for me to send you some links I will.

[biafra4life]

It's interesting and somewhat hilarious to hear people on here screaming about affirmative action. Yes blacks and latinos make easy targets, yet I wonder how vigorously the white posters would oppose quotas if they faced reality. News flash folks, if Asians were not held back by quotas they would absolutely knock out pretty much all the blacks/Latinos from college consideration. No question about it, but here's the thing: they would also mop the floor academically against white kids too. Doubt me? Well look at what they are doing on the high school level. Pull up the list of NMSF at Plano, Frisco, Coppell or Flower Mound. You would think these were local high schools in India, not America. If Asian kids are dominant at the high school level, it would be the same at the college level. Somehow I don't see the posters here being thrilled at their kids being shut out of all the elite schools.

[NP78]

Originally Posted by biafra4life

It's interesting and somewhat hilarious to hear people on here screaming about affirmative action. Yes blacks and latinos make easy targets, yet I wonder how vigorously the white posters would oppose quotas if they faced reality. News flash folks, if Asians were not held back by quotas they would absolutely knock out pretty much all the blacks/Latinos from college consideration. No question about it, but here's the thing: they would also mop the floor academically against white kids too. Doubt me? Well look at what they are doing on the high school level. Pull up the list of NMSF at Plano, Frisco, Coppell or Flower Mound. You would think these were local high schools in India, not America. If Asian kids are dominant at the high school level, it would be the same at the college level. Somehow I don't see the posters here being thrilled at their kids being shut out of all the elite schools.

That assumes that the posters in question are white. At least one of the posters that has criticized the admissions policies is Asian for sure, maybe others.

I don't care personally. My kids are mixed race, we will just check whichever box helps the most.

[biafra4life]

Originally Posted by NP78

That assumes that the posters in question are white. At least one of the posters that has criticized the admissions policies is Asian for sure, maybe others.

I don't care personally. My kids are mixed race, we will just check whichever box helps the most.

What I mean is that if quotas for Asian kids are lifted white kids wont be getting into any top schools either. Asians would be the overwhelming majority at pretty much every top school in the country be that undergrad, graduate or medical/law/engineering. Note that this is not a diss to Asians. Just pointing out what I suspect college admissions folk already know and want to avoid. Harvard would rather not become the University of Mumbai, Boston branch.

[UnfairPark]

If instead of artificially engineering desireable diversity at higher level by pushing some to back of the line and shoving some to the front, if we can work on stable family units and equality in basic pay and education and healthcare then we’ll have no need to go for diversity at the expense of equality.

[kyam11]

Originally Posted by UnfairPark

If instead of artificially engineering desireable diversity at higher level by pushing some to back of the line and shoving some to the front, if we can work on stable family units and equality in basic pay and education and healthcare then we’ll have no need to go for diversity at the expense of equality.

What is equality in basic pay? Every single person is paid exactly what they are supposed to be paid.

[UnfairPark]

Originally Posted by biafra4life

What I mean is that if quotas for Asian kids are lifted white kids wont be getting into any top schools either. Asians would be the overwhelming majority at pretty much every top school in the country be that undergrad, graduate or medical/law/engineering. Note that this is not a diss to Asians. Just pointing out what I suspect college admissions folk already know and want to avoid. Harvard would rather not become the University of Mumbai, Boston branch.

Well, then don’t admit International Asians but why discriminate against Asian Americans? By the way International African students, affluent AA and children of recent African immigrants are the ones benefiting more from the quota meant to help African Americans dealing with lingering effects of slavery and centuries of racism.

[MurphyPl1]

Originally Posted by kyam11

What is equality in basic pay? Every single person is paid exactly what they are supposed to be paid.

If that were true then the EEOC and DOL compensation division wouldn't be necessary.

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by biafra4life

It's interesting and somewhat hilarious to hear people on here screaming about affirmative action. Yes blacks and latinos make easy targets, yet I wonder how vigorously the white posters would oppose quotas if they faced reality. News flash folks, if Asians were not held back by quotas they would absolutely knock out pretty much all the blacks/Latinos from college consideration. No question about it, but here's the thing: they would also mop the floor academically against white kids too. Doubt me? Well look at what they are doing on the high school level. Pull up the list of NMSF at Plano, Frisco, Coppell or Flower Mound. You would think these were local high schools in India, not America. If Asian kids are dominant at the high school level, it would be the same at the college level. Somehow I don't see the posters here being thrilled at their kids being shut out of all the elite schools.

I....
1. Across the country Asian kids make up about 30% of NMSFs. Not 95%.
2. ~Half of all Asian Americans have a college degree not 95%.
3. 2015 med. school grads by race
A. White 48%
B. Asian 19%
C. Black or AA 6%
D. Hispanic or Latino 5%

IMO what we need to do is foster better academic results for black, AA, Latino, Hispanic and other historical educational minorities instead of granting easy access to minority kids who A). displace better qualified candidates B). tend to struggle more once granted access.

II....
I'd like for anyone to explain to me how this kid's situation is/was in anyway reasonable.
https://www.economist.com/news/brief...mplaining-ever

III....
My kids, one to a greater degree than the other so far anyway, demonstrate that white kids can and do slug it out with Asian kids and everyone else in academia and do fine.
As a tid bit in my daughter's particular engineering program there are 581 whites, 129 Asians, 25 blacks and 208 Hispanic/Latino.

IV....
My son went to medical school with several black and AA students who were there on the merits and excelled. So let's not paint the picture that higher end academic pursuits would be all Asian in a more meritorious environment.