National Merit Semifinalists 2018 (Dallas, Howe, Clint: bill, activity, health)

[kyam11]

Originally Posted by EDS_

Listen, I'm not sure if you are a troll or if you simply don't take enough time to read what other people actually write.

I didn't say MDs finishing in the bottom half of his/her class disappear or become accountants. I said that on balance those from the bottom half make less money than those from the top half as more from the bottom half end up practicing in fields that pay less.

1. From a couple of years ago........192 is the minimum passing passing score.
*The average Family Medicine residency slot winner had a 213 USMLE Step I score (24th percentile) and was looking toward average pay of $189,000.
*Psychiatry 214 and $196,000

*The average Plastic Surgery residency slot winner had a 249 USMLE Step I scores (84 percentile) and was looking toward average pay of $321,000.
*Dermatologists 244 and $390,000.


This is a little old but it gets the point across.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquel.../#f93eed3a2a3a


End note.........I'm not making fun of any MD, I couldn't do it.

I think you misunderstood regarding the pay, but I'll say it again. Totally agree that your higher performers are more likely to be a Urologist than a Family Practice. However a Urologist is not paid based on his education. A Dermatologist is not paid based on their education. A Dermatologist is also not paid based on how good of a doctor they are, nor is a Urologist. While the speciality that someone gets into is based on their education, the pay they receive is not. It is based on how they bill.

Had you actually read what I wrote you would have seen that I acknowledged that. In other words you actually did what you accused me of.

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by kyam11

I think you misunderstood regarding the pay, but I'll say it again. Totally agree that your higher performers are more likely to be a Urologist than a Family Practice. However a Urologist is not paid based on his education. A Dermatologist is not paid based on their education. A Dermatologist is also not paid based on how good of a doctor they are, nor is a Urologist.

Had you actually read what I wrote you would have seen that I acknowledged that. In other words you actually did what you accused me of.

I read all of that. It's just more of your obfuscation.

Simple points of logic.
1. If one does not have the bonafides to win a residency in one of the better paying specialties those jobs are off limits.
2. When speaking about relatively large numbers of people - anything over several hundred - averages mitigate the variances you are talking about.
3. Throughout life we find that top academic performers are not necessarily the top performers within their profession. However, there is an economically sticky positive relationship.

[kyam11]

Originally Posted by EDS_

I read all of that. It's just more of your obfuscation.

Simple points of logic.
1. If one does not have the bonafides to win a residency in one of the better paying specialties those jobs are off limits.
2. When speaking about relatively large numbers of people - anything over several hundred - averages mitigate the variances you are talking about.
3. Throughout life we find that top academic performers are not necessarily the top performers within their profession. However, there is an economically sticky positive relationship.

Re #1) . OK. No disagreement. However one will still not be paid based on education or skill once accepted into specialty. You are trying to argue that a Neurosurgeon makes more than a Family Practice doctor and that the better educated one likely will get into Neurosurgery. No disagreement at all. What I am telling you is that if we look at Neurosurgeons and how they get paid education and skill matter none. I'll take it a step further and tell you that I have seen horrible Stanford doctors (skill wise) and great doctors from (insert average University). I have seen poorly skilled doctors make twice as much as skilled doctors.

Re #2) . Not sure what this has to do with anything. Need more clarification.

Re #3) . Not the case in medicine at all. I see what thousands of physicians bill per year and there is no correlation between performance and education and/or skill once we get into a specific specialty. There is no positive relationship here. A Gynecologist from Texas Tech can easily and many times does make far more than a Stanford educated one. Once you are through the education portion as a physician your schooling does not matter. The highest paid Urologist in Dallas went to University of Minnesota. I can name 100 med schools better than that school.

BTW if MDs were so smart why is that their pay has been cut every single year for the past 20 years? If they were truly that smart they would not have allowed that to happen.

TO summate:

1) . We are in agreement that specialties will make more than Family Practice on average
2) . We are in agreement that the harder the specialty the more likely education will determine which specialty you get into.

BTW your first point you tried to make a while ago is still not true which is that the bottom portion of graduates from med school are still called doctor just like the top portion. While they might not be a Neurosurgeon and ended up in family practice the worst family practice is called doctor and the best Neurosurgeon is called doctor.

[UnfairPark]

As we have Rice, UTD and UT Austin graduates here on our forum, give your reasons for why a NSMF should pick one over the other?

[calgirlinnc]

Originally Posted by UnfairPark

You can. Think Ben Carson.

What?

From Wikipedia (yes, I know, Wikipedia):

"Born in Detroit, Michigan, and a graduate of Yale University and the University of Michigan Medical School, Carson has authored numerous books on his medical career and political stances. He was the subject of a television drama film in 2009.

He was the Director of Pediatric Neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Maryland from 1984 until his retirement in 2013. As a pioneer in neurosurgery, Carson's achievements include performing the only successful separation of conjoined twins joined at the back of the head, pioneering the first successful neurosurgical procedure on a fetus inside the womb, performing the first completely successful separation of type-2 vertical craniopagus twins, developing new methods to treat brain-stem tumors, and reviving hemispherectomy techniques for controlling seizures.[3][4][5] He became the youngest chief of pediatric neurosurgery in the country at age 33.[6] He has received more than 60 honorary doctorate degrees, dozens of national merit citations, and written over 100 neurosurgical publications.[7] In 2008, he was bestowed the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian award in the United States.[8]"

To accomplish all that while being a minority and born into an impoverished family with an illiterate mother...I have huge respect for Dr. Carson.

[UnfairPark]

He had a good run but have you heard him speak recently?

[UnfairPark]

Fun fact: Amazon’s Bezos, Paypal’s Thiel, Microsoft’s Gates, Facebook’s Zuckerberg etc, all made National Merit. I doubt they spent their days at prep centers to improve PSAT scores.

[BigDGeek]

Originally Posted by calgirlinnc

What?

From Wikipedia (yes, I know, Wikipedia):

"Born in Detroit, Michigan, and a graduate of Yale University and the University of Michigan Medical School, Carson has authored numerous books on his medical career and political stances. He was the subject of a television drama film in 2009.

He was the Director of Pediatric Neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Maryland from 1984 until his retirement in 2013. As a pioneer in neurosurgery, Carson's achievements include performing the only successful separation of conjoined twins joined at the back of the head, pioneering the first successful neurosurgical procedure on a fetus inside the womb, performing the first completely successful separation of type-2 vertical craniopagus twins, developing new methods to treat brain-stem tumors, and reviving hemispherectomy techniques for controlling seizures.[3][4][5] He became the youngest chief of pediatric neurosurgery in the country at age 33.[6] He has received more than 60 honorary doctorate degrees, dozens of national merit citations, and written over 100 neurosurgical publications.[7] In 2008, he was bestowed the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian award in the United States.[8]"

To accomplish all that while being a minority and born into an impoverished family with an illiterate mother...I have huge respect for Dr. Carson.

Yeah...I hate his politics but I do admire what he has accomplished against the odds.

[synchronicity]

Originally Posted by BigDGeek

Yeah...I hate his politics but I do admire what he has accomplished against the odds.

I think we can all agree that even exceptionally bright people can be very qualified in one or two fields, but still be uninformed or flat-out wrong in other areas.

My father was a brilliant attorney in his specialty and generally extremely intelligent, but he couldn't read a map to save his life (road map, subway map, you name it) and had a horrible sense of direction. This led to some "interesting" driving experiences.

I work in financial services, and doctors are notorious for entering into some of the stupidest, most ill-thought out schemes for "tax shelter". It's a running joke. Obviously, it's not all doctors or even most, but it springs from the issue that many people believe their competence in one area extends to many others, when sometimes...no.

Originally Posted by UnfairPark

Fun fact: Amazon’s Bezos, Paypal’s Thiel, Microsoft’s Gates, Facebook’s Zuckerberg etc, all made National Merit. I doubt they spent their days at prep centers to improve PSAT scores.

And again, some people are fortunate enough that they can fall out of bed and do extraordinarily well on those types of tests. Making NMSF isn't always a testament to "hard work" or whatever, just like some people are really good natural athletes or whatever. Granted, almost none of those lucky few reach Bezos/Thiel/etc. levels.

[calgirlinnc]

Originally Posted by UnfairPark

He had a good run but have you heard him speak recently?

There are plenty of people whose comments I find puzzling or disgraceful or I flat out disagree with. However, I don't belittle their accomplishments because of it, especially on random threads that have nothing to do with them.