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Wait. She loves Austin and wanted to go to UT but because they said they were committed to her because she was female and she was a minority she is no longer interested. This woman is dumber than a rock if that is the case.
For the boy - OU instead of Ivies. Pure stupidity.
Your logic along these topics never fails to make me laugh.
1. It's weird that you are in the medical business with endless strong related opinions and yet you have no idea how any of this stuff works. Clearly to anyone wired in even a little the UT school she interviewed with was her bail-out school. Say she came down with a case of smallpox and was turned down at all of the top notch programs she's considering this UT residency would keep her from waiting tables.
2. You are the guy always harping about ROI and money................. For a kid on a high confidence medical or Ph.D track the perceived quality of his undergraduate program/school brand is near meaningless i nthe long term. Additionally, he'd be, just a guess $200K - probably more - in the hole with any Ivy BS. If he plays his cards right he'll be mostly done with his Ph.D or MD before his $150K is gone.
Sorry for the condensed language - don't have much time.
1. A Dallas boy we know through a math tutoring program our son used to tutor in is:
A). white and 18yo
B). Parents are white and make about $150K combined - both have college degrees.
C). Kid is exceptionally strong in math.
D). He has about 100 college credits with a 4.00 from real deal colleges.
E). Because he has been so into college he sort of forgot about high school - looks like he'll have about 3.1gpa and finish outside the top 30% in his class.
F). A couple of years ago the made a 2,300+ on the old SAT. And he's killed the math SAT subject test.
G). Although undiagnosed, so far as I know, I'm relatively certain he's on the spectrum if you take my meaning.
Anyhow kid wants to be either of an academic MD, a Ph.D meteorologist, or a Ph.D statistician.
The college visits start-
1). From a couple of Ivies, your parents are rich you'll have to pay X% of stated tuition and we'd love to have you - even with the wrecked, relatively, high school stuff. None of the 100 hours count.
2). UT - we'd love to have you. The can offer a trivial scholarship, kid was told if you do well we'll look for more money after your first semester. The kid and his mother were literally told if he had minority status there would be immediate and substantial money.
3). Rice - kind of the same
4). Texas A&M - offered a package worth roughly $60K from private placement scholarship money earmarked for engineering students. Gotta start over mostly but OK. Pretty nice IMO.
5). OU - Sooner people scheduled a 1.5 day trip with several hours set aside to talk to advisors, profs, Ph.D candidates etc. very high vale stuff IMO. Kid loved it. Offer highlights............
A). Right at $150,000 total value offer - tuition, books, food, lodging, travel, study abroad etc.
B). Kid can study literally anything he wants.
C). He can start over or use all but 3 or 6 of his hours finish and then go straight to graduate school and use the money as he see's fit.
So 99% sure he's going to OU to finish a degree and jump straight into a Ph.D or medical program.
_____________________
We know a young lady who will graduate with an MD from a super east coast medical school this Spring/Summer. She'll graduate in the top 5 of her class, has done lots of high value research IIRC she has 6 first and second line authorships, and via a sabbatical year she has a year's third world medical experience, and an MBA too and she's a traditional minority. In other words she's a spectacular residency candidate without her minority status. She wants to practice in a particular area of pediatrics which is quite competative.
1). She's interviewed at Harvard, Penn, Vandy, UCLA, Baylor - Houston and a few others that have programs that closely enough mirror what she wants to do. She told me the interviews were all 100% professional, focusing on the overlap between her various skill sets and each programs offerings.
2). Austin is one of her fav. cities and place she might choose to live long term so she decided to interview at one of the UT medical schools (not UTSW) to interview and essentially every interviewer focused on diversity topics. "We are so very committed to diversity and you (being female and a minority) fit that vision" etc. etc. She left furious that she had spent the travel money to get there. So furious she's going to residency match rank the program last - that means 100% she's going somewhere else. She's thinking about ranking Baylor #1 where her minority status was mentioned 1 time over a two day process.
A few thoughts:
I would preface this by saying that as a black man, I've despised affirmative action. It never ceases to aggravate me when some white person (always white) tries to imply to me that I got into TCU for college due to my race. Then we get to comparing SAT scores and grades and in most cases I've had either superior credentials or at least comparable. (1370 on the SAT on a 1600 scale back in 1998). It's the same thing in the workplace. Black people would know exactly what I mean when I say we have to be twice as good just to be considered average. I worked pretty damn hard my entire life to get where I am. No handouts given and none required. I will confidently put my work up against anyone, any color. Anytime. Then you can all take your prejudices and stick them where the sun don't shine. But thanks anyway.
Moving on, I've noticed that far too many white people now use the AA boogey man as the excuse for all their failures in life. I've met too many people who upon hearing I went to TCU tell me "oh I wanted to go there but I couldn't get in due to affirmative action" to which I think, "bullspit". In 1998 when I first attended TCU, if you exclude the athletes (who get in on a different set of criteria), the number of non athletic black kids at TCU was maybe 5% tops, and that's being generous. That percentage dives even lower if you look into the two majors I tried while at TCU, premed and accounting. I was usually the only black person, or one of at most two or three. Ditto for most of the hard science majors. So what I'm saying is that if you as a white person was unable to get into TCU, especially for hard sciences, it wasn't because of black kids. Sorry.
Now if you do want to point the finger at any group, look at the international students. Most schools LOVE these kids, because they usually pay full freight and are ineligible for most of the Federal government financial aid programs (Pell Grants, work study etc). So many schools will gladly dump local kids and take on more foreign kids.
Secondly, while the hands of UT/A&M are tied by the 10% rule, the privates (TCU/SMU/Baylor) are not. And it's here that I focus on. These schools are not stupid. They know that they cant afford to have a student body that is not majority white middle class, as that is where all their fundraising efforts are aimed at. They know that poor black families are typically not going to be contributing money to the endowments. It's all about the $$$.
Now let's look at your little friend. He's upset that the Ivies didn't show much enthusiasm. Did he really think they would be throwing themselves at him with what you yourself describe as a "wrecked" gpa? As remarkable as he is, the Ivies see his type and more all the time with stronger all round credentials. Such is life.
Most of the top schools wont accept dual credit hours, not just the Ivies. Only thing most will grudgingly accept is AP/IB. Nothing new here.
Last I checked, his parents income would have disqualified him from getting financial aid whether he was white or black. My kid will be in a similar spot when she goes to college. The key to dealing with this was to be proactive in searching for outside scholarships early in the game, many of which are open to white kids. Shocking I know.
The rules regarding UT have been in place for a long time now. If he was in the top 7% of his class, he would have been in, whether he was white, black or purple. He didn't make the cut. Don't blame race for this.
I hate to sound harsh on the boy. I'm sure he's a wonderful young man, but the cold hard facts are if he did what he needed to do, he wouldn't be here complaining about diversity holding him back. Like I said before, I hate any preferential treatment based on race or gender. Do your best and may the best man or woman win.
OK now I'm tired. You may all carry on.
I also agree. "The recruiter who I'll probably never seen again even if I go to this campus was slightly rude to me, so I'm going to forgo my favorite educational opportunity. That'll show them."
And there is no brain drain. The number of people moving to Texas and their higher salaries and educational attainment are all positive. It sucks for individual cases, but net it's just noise. And I know this is going to come as a surprise, but a lot of the people who are interested in leaving TX for college do so because they don't like or care about Texas that much.
That's totally not how it works.
1). Medical residency interviews are not with a recruiter. They are, always so far as I know, a series of interviews with current residents, chief residents, physician fellows, attending physicians and physician program directors etc. Oft times there's a mixer one evening for small talk and then a phalanx of interviews the next day and sometimes a second day of interviews. These are people the interviewee will spend thousands of hours working under and with for years facing the kind of pressure most of us can't relate to. So it's a big deal.
2). The UT school was her bailout choice, like option number 15 with a giant gap between 14 and 15 - nowhere close to, "her favorite educational opportunity".
3). Your last point is bogus or incomplete on at least two counts.
A). People moving in from elsewhere for jobs and youngsters leaving for college elsewhere are two separate issues.
B). Sure some people leave Texas for college because they want to do so. Many do so because the flagships are forced to take lower quality students who happen to meet an automatic metric.
The preference for diversity is common at nearly every college, not just UT. This has been the norm for 20+ years everywhere, with the exceptions of the few states who have made the practice illegal. Perhaps UT was merely more transparent.
OU historically has been a 3rd tier school (improved as of late, though), so a strong candidate regardless of ethnicity/gender has better offers there than a "diverse" candidate. But make no mistake, all things being equal among two candidates, the diverse candidate will get the better offer at OU as well.
A group of Asian students has recently sued Harvard over its AA programs, citing discrimination. It will be interesting to see how this pans out, but prior Supreme Court cases have been clear that AA is legal discrimination.
1. A number of great colleges, Cal Berkeley and frankly most of The UC System offer very little in the way of racial preferences.
2. In no reasonable way can OU be considered a 3rd tier school, in fact it is a Carnegie R1 Intensive Research University or whatever that's called.
3. Agreed, the suits against Harvard and other schools will be interesting to watch.
A few thoughts:
I would preface this by saying that as a black man, I've despised affirmative action. It never ceases to aggravate me when some white person (always white) tries to imply to me that I got into TCU for college due to my race. Then we get to comparing SAT scores and grades and in most cases I've had either superior credentials or at least comparable. (1370 on the SAT on a 1600 scale back in 1998). It's the same thing in the workplace. Black people would know exactly what I mean when I say we have to be twice as good just to be considered average. I worked pretty damn hard my entire life to get where I am. No handouts given and none required. I will confidently put my work up against anyone, any color. Anytime. Then you can all take your prejudices and stick them where the sun don't shine. But thanks anyway.
Moving on, I've noticed that far too many white people now use the AA boogey man as the excuse for all their failures in life. I've met too many people who upon hearing I went to TCU tell me "oh I wanted to go there but I couldn't get in due to affirmative action" to which I think, "bullspit". In 1998 when I first attended TCU, if you exclude the athletes (who get in on a different set of criteria), the number of non athletic black kids at TCU was maybe 5% tops, and that's being generous. That percentage dives even lower if you look into the two majors I tried while at TCU, premed and accounting. I was usually the only black person, or one of at most two or three. Ditto for most of the hard science majors. So what I'm saying is that if you as a white person was unable to get into TCU, especially for hard sciences, it wasn't because of black kids. Sorry.
Now if you do want to point the finger at any group, look at the international students. Most schools LOVE these kids, because they usually pay full freight and are ineligible for most of the Federal government financial aid programs (Pell Grants, work study etc). So many schools will gladly dump local kids and take on more foreign kids.
Secondly, while the hands of UT/A&M are tied by the 10% rule, the privates (TCU/SMU/Baylor) are not. And it's here that I focus on. These schools are not stupid. They know that they cant afford to have a student body that is not majority white middle class, as that is where all their fundraising efforts are aimed at. They know that poor black families are typically not going to be contributing money to the endowments. It's all about the $$$.
Now let's look at your little friend. He's upset that the Ivies didn't show much enthusiasm. Did he really think they would be throwing themselves at him with what you yourself describe as a "wrecked" gpa? As remarkable as he is, the Ivies see his type and more all the time with stronger all round credentials. Such is life.
Most of the top schools wont accept dual credit hours, not just the Ivies. Only thing most will grudgingly accept is AP/IB. Nothing new here.
Last I checked, his parents income would have disqualified him from getting financial aid whether he was white or black. My kid will be in a similar spot when she goes to college. The key to dealing with this was to be proactive in searching for outside scholarships early in the game, many of which are open to white kids. Shocking I know.
The rules regarding UT have been in place for a long time now. If he was in the top 7% of his class, he would have been in, whether he was white, black or purple. He didn't make the cut. Don't blame race for this.
I hate to sound harsh on the boy. I'm sure he's a wonderful young man, but the cold hard facts are if he did what he needed to do, he wouldn't be here complaining about diversity holding him back. Like I said before, I hate any preferential treatment based on race or gender. Do your best and may the best man or woman win.
OK now I'm tired. You may all carry on.
A few thoughts:
I would preface this by saying that as a black man, I've despised affirmative action. It never ceases to aggravate me when some white person (always white) tries to imply to me that I got into TCU for college due to my race. Then we get to comparing SAT scores and grades and in most cases I've had either superior credentials or at least comparable. (1370 on the SAT on a 1600 scale back in 1998). It's the same thing in the workplace. Black people would know exactly what I mean when I say we have to be twice as good just to be considered average. I worked pretty damn hard my entire life to get where I am. No handouts given and none required. I will confidently put my work up against anyone, any color. Anytime. Then you can all take your prejudices and stick them where the sun don't shine. But thanks anyway.
Moving on, I've noticed that far too many white people now use the AA boogey man as the excuse for all their failures in life. I've met too many people who upon hearing I went to TCU tell me "oh I wanted to go there but I couldn't get in due to affirmative action" to which I think, "bullspit". In 1998 when I first attended TCU, if you exclude the athletes (who get in on a different set of criteria), the number of non athletic black kids at TCU was maybe 5% tops, and that's being generous. That percentage dives even lower if you look into the two majors I tried while at TCU, premed and accounting. I was usually the only black person, or one of at most two or three. Ditto for most of the hard science majors. So what I'm saying is that if you as a white person was unable to get into TCU, especially for hard sciences, it wasn't because of black kids. Sorry.
Now if you do want to point the finger at any group, look at the international students. Most schools LOVE these kids, because they usually pay full freight and are ineligible for most of the Federal government financial aid programs (Pell Grants, work study etc). So many schools will gladly dump local kids and take on more foreign kids.
Secondly, while the hands of UT/A&M are tied by the 10% rule, the privates (TCU/SMU/Baylor) are not. And it's here that I focus on. These schools are not stupid. They know that they cant afford to have a student body that is not majority white middle class, as that is where all their fundraising efforts are aimed at. They know that poor black families are typically not going to be contributing money to the endowments. It's all about the $$$.
Now let's look at your little friend. He's upset that the Ivies didn't show much enthusiasm. Did he really think they would be throwing themselves at him with what you yourself describe as a "wrecked" gpa? As remarkable as he is, the Ivies see his type and more all the time with stronger all round credentials. Such is life.
Most of the top schools wont accept dual credit hours, not just the Ivies. Only thing most will grudgingly accept is AP/IB. Nothing new here.
Last I checked, his parents income would have disqualified him from getting financial aid whether he was white or black. My kid will be in a similar spot when she goes to college. The key to dealing with this was to be proactive in searching for outside scholarships early in the game, many of which are open to white kids. Shocking I know.
The rules regarding UT have been in place for a long time now. If he was in the top 7% of his class, he would have been in, whether he was white, black or purple. He didn't make the cut. Don't blame race for this.
I hate to sound harsh on the boy. I'm sure he's a wonderful young man, but the cold hard facts are if he did what he needed to do, he wouldn't be here complaining about diversity holding him back. Like I said before, I hate any preferential treatment based on race or gender. Do your best and may the best man or woman win.
OK now I'm tired. You may all carry on.
1. My first wife was black. She used to say, "never underestimate the ability of white people to patronize us", us meaning black people of course. She was a mathematician the worst one I heard was when an older white lady told her and I quote,"honey you and I both know there is no way a 'colored' can be a mathematician" - obviously that one went beyond patronizing - straight to bigotry. Further, one of my son's acquaintances from medical school has more or less perfect academic bonafides, lots of well read and cited research and he's black. Until he became fairly well known he was often treated as, "the black guy who got in on a quota" or whatever. He's assistant chief of specialty at a great department and patients sometimes think he's an orderly. Long way of saying I know that nonsense goes on and it must be infuriating.
I forgot a good one about people mistaking black people. Some good friends are an IT security guy and a homemaker and black. One evening a while back we were all standing near the valet stand outside the Melrose. Keep in mind my friend dresses better than Prince Charles. Anyway, a middle aged white guy hands off his keys to the valet guy then walks straight over and hands his coat to my buddy. The dude just assuming that the well dressed black guy must be the coat-boy. And then the guy charged off into the hotel.
2. I would agree with you that many whites do indeed hide behind the AA boogeyman.
3. I think you are missing some of my points about the kid across several areas. He is sitting on an acceptance letter from Harvard. He can go next fall if he wants but he'd pay nearly full retail.
A). He has a wrecked high school GPA but 100 hours of 4.00 college work some of it from Harvard.
B). So far as I know none of his work is typical dual-credit. Harvard and indeed nearly every school no matter how exclusive does accept up to 2 years of transfer credit. In his case Harvard won't accept most of his credit because most was earned over the internet.
C). He can get financial aid. He wasn't able to find any merit based scholarship money only loan money.
4. I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from re: UT as he was accepted and I mentioned they offered him a scholarship.
5. He's not really complaining about diversity efforts and byzantine related rules holding him back - I am. UT hamstrings itself with so many diversity efforts and spends so much need based money that they have very little merit money for truly exceptional kids.
Let's put it this way UT will admit a bunch of top-6% or whatever white kids from awful country schools who can't hold this kid's lunchbox vis a vis brain-power. When it could spend a bit of that cash on this kid who is going to be doc. or Ph.D. OU on the other hand does less of the broad based diversity stuff ergo they have proportionally more money to go after truly exceptional kids. And in this case it looks like OU will win.
3. He is sitting on an acceptance letter from Harvard. He can go next fall if he wants but he'd pay nearly full retail..
This doesn’t make sense. A family with 150k income
Is expected to pay 10 percent of their income - $15k - per year at Harvard. Students are also expected to contribute earnings from a very part time job (about 10 hours per week) during the school year, and full time job during the summer. He should still qualify for about $50k per year in need based aid that does not need to be repaid. It’s still expensive, sure, but a small fraction of full retail. The ivies have far more generous aid packages now than in the past.
This doesn’t make sense. A family with 150k income
Is expected to pay 10 percent of their income - $15k - per year at Harvard. Students are also expected to contribute earnings from a very part time job (about 10 hours per week) during the school year, and full time job during the summer. He should still qualify for about $50k per year in need based aid that does not need to be repaid. It’s still expensive, sure, but a small fraction of full retail. The ivies have far more generous aid packages now than in the past.
I'm pretty well versed on the Harvard thing. They have other assets and are looking at nearly full retail. We've figured it. Harvard has figured it etc.
Ivies are generous for low income/low asset families, not for well earning families with decent nest eggs. Ivies are Robin hoods in that regard, they milk full pay students to sponsor financial aid admits. It’s all good when full payee are wealthy but it completely sucks upper middle class families dry. I think OU is a good fit for a student who needs merit money, prefers to use his credit hours to earn a metrology degree.
If money wasn’t an object then probably Harvard would be a better choice.
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