What do you think of the DART? (Dallas, Plano: transfer, to buy)

[aceplace]

Dallas used to have a few electric trolleybus lines but they vanished back in the 1950's, I think. Just like the streetcar network. Actually, the history of Dallas transit refutes the popular myth that the streetcar system in cities was a victim of GM buying and scrapping streetcars. The Dallas system was never owned by GM or any other large out of state corporation, but it abandoned streetcars just like everywhere else.

I'd agree that an elevated line in a dense cityscape is ugly... as ugly as black steel girders. DART has some stretches of elevated line but they are out in the open with plenty of space around them, and they are concrete, not steel. Fortunately, DART built the downtown transit mall on the surface, not as an elevated line. They are very conscious of the esthetic effects of transit for public relations purposes, and bend over to make the system as attractive as possible. Some of the DART stations have some pretty attractive artwork... try the murals at the Tyler-Vernon station sometime.

If the Silver line buses just run in a section of the street merely painted over with "bus only" signage, then yes, that is a poor solution. Is there any other way to get to the airport from South Station? The Blue line anywhere near the station? San Francisco found a novel way to prevent cars from using bus only lanes, at least on the 101 freeway in Marin county. The buses travel opposite to traffic. If you're going north to San Rafael and you get into the bus lane on the left, you will have a head-on collision with a southbound bus.

[Bostonian08]

Originally Posted by aceplace

I'd agree that an elevated line in a dense cityscape is ugly... as ugly as black steel girders. DART has some stretches of elevated line but they are out in the open with plenty of space around them, and they are concrete, not steel. Fortunately, DART built the downtown transit mall on the surface, not as an elevated line. They are very conscious of the esthetic effects of transit for public relations purposes, and bend over to make the system as attractive as possible. Some of the DART stations have some pretty attractive artwork... try the murals at the Tyler-Vernon station sometime.

Yeah I've seen those. They are done well, just like the Dallas highways. They incorporated concern with aesthetics into the equation, and it works great. They didn't bother to do that in CHI or NYC.


You can see the EL is an eyesore from the satellite! The fouled up Wabash Ave (and many others) for all eternity!

Originally Posted by aceplace

If the Silver line buses just run in a section of the street merely painted over with "bus only" signage, then yes, that is a poor solution. Is there any other way to get to the airport from South Station? The Blue line anywhere near the station? San Francisco found a novel way to prevent cars from using bus only lanes, at least on the 101 freeway in Marin county. The buses travel opposite to traffic. If you're going north to San Rafael and you get into the bus lane on the left, you will have a head-on collision with a southbound bus.

Here's Washington St. Note in the Blue the little diamonds painted on the street. This designates bus lane. Note the vehicle double parked in the bus lane at the red arrow. Not too smart, eh? You oughta see it when traffic is heavy.

The part from South Station to the airport runs underground through the new Big Dig tunnel and works great. And yes, you can get there via the Blue Line too, but the Blue Line leaves from Government Center, not South Station.

[DWong]

Man to say the 4th largest metro in the US doesn't even break the top 50 of % ridership is saying something! People in DFW does anyone want the DART or make better use of that $ towards roads? Did anyone notice on this chat that the highest % ridership also has the highest real estate and density only emphasizing that DART cannot work (it is too late!). When major US cities were planned out they knew whether they would need public transportation or not. DFW is doing ok w/out it. And people will continue to love their homes on big lots, again, something that doesn't make for good public transportation.

List of U.S. cities with high transit ridership - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[lpepping]

No they won't. Gas is getting too expensive for those 50+ mile commutes.

[DWong]

Originally Posted by lpepping

No they won't. Gas is getting too expensive for those 50+ mile commutes.

True, but living out here in CA w/ commuters and those using public transport is it worth the following:

1. time to work (public transportation for 30+ miles ) is approx 1 hour

2. It doesn't drop you off near or to your work; you still would have to grab a bus or walk a good distance

I can take public transport to get me just about anywhere in CA, but to wake up an hour earlier and get to home an hour later - it just isn't worth it. The freedom a car gives is too great to give up. It would have to be a tremendous pain before people hop on the DART. And now it won't be and with outward growth traffic isn't horrible (compared to larger or similar cities).

TX loves big cars and big trucks - here in CA we practically started the hybrid movement and now have fullly electric cars (that aren't ugly yet affordable) on the road. That will happen before DART breaks the top 50 cities in % ridership.

[lpepping]

Originally Posted by DWong

True, but living out here in CA w/ commuters and those using public transport is it worth the following:

1. time to work (public transportation for 30+ miles ) is approx 1 hour

Most people that commute 30+ miles in DFW(burbs to downtown) are on the road for at least an hour each way anyways. Yes how sad is that. But I do agree that taking public transport can take longer then driving but it isn't a drastic difference here.

Originally Posted by DWong

2. It doesn't drop you off near or to your work; you still would have to grab a bus or walk a good distance

DART lightrail in Dallas works for downtown workers mostly. I agree it does not work well at present for most other workers.

Originally Posted by DWong

I can take public transport to get me just about anywhere in CA, but to wake up an hour earlier and get to home an hour later - it just isn't worth it. The freedom a car gives is too great to give up. It would have to be a tremendous pain before people hop on the DART. And now it won't be and with outward growth traffic isn't horrible (compared to larger or similar cities).

There is already enough pain for certain commuters in Dallas to increase the use of DART.

Originally Posted by DWong

TX loves big cars and big trucks - here in CA we practically started the hybrid movement and now have fullly electric cars (that aren't ugly yet affordable) on the road. That will happen before DART breaks the top 50 cities in % ridership.

What will happen before DART breaks the top 50 cities in % ridership? I am not following what your are trying to say.

[orion1778]

Originally Posted by DWong

I can take public transport to get me just about anywhere in CA, but to wake up an hour earlier and get to home an hour later - it just isn't worth it.

Some people have an entirely different mindset. You could spend hours in traffic, angry, frustrated, and ready to kill someone (as often is the case in Texas) or you could spend the extra time on a bus/train reading, sleeping, and generally not having to worry about everyone else on the road.

Sure, time is a factor; but how you spend that time matters too.

[DWong]

Originally Posted by lpepping

Most people that commute 30+ miles in DFW(burbs to downtown) are on the road for at least an hour each way anyways. Yes how sad is that. But I do agree that taking public transport can take longer then driving but it isn't a drastic difference here.



DART lightrail in Dallas works for downtown workers mostly. I agree it does not work well at present for most other workers.



There is already enough pain for certain commuters in Dallas to increase the use of DART.



What will happen before DART breaks the top 50 cities in % ridership? I am not following what your are trying to say.

Oh sorry I was referring to the fact that DART doesn't break in the top 50 cities for public transport use. Being the 4th largest metro yet not in the top 50 says alot about the culture and demographics of the area. It isn't anywhere near being public transport friendly. They can claim the 2030 plan all they want, people prefer cars till the end of day and growth is spanning outward and not up and in.

[DWong]

Originally Posted by orion1778

Some people have an entirely different mindset. You could spend hours in traffic, angry, frustrated, and ready to kill someone (as often is the case in Texas) or you could spend the extra time on a bus/train reading, sleeping, and generally not having to worry about everyone else on the road.

Sure, time is a factor; but how you spend that time matters too.

Agreed! Wait, a previous post said a 30 miles commute in parts of Dallas will be upwards of an hour? That's practically LA traffic in my book. Is it really that bad? I have alot of family in DFW and they live and work in various parts of the city. They said it wouldn't be possible to make DART user friendly. Also keep in mind big home lot sizes and small desity makes for a terrible public transportation system... everything is too far spread!

[lpepping]

Originally Posted by DWong

Agreed! Wait, a previous post said a 30 miles commute in parts of Dallas will be upwards of an hour? That's practically LA traffic in my book. Is it really that bad? I have alot of family in DFW and they live and work in various parts of the city. They said it wouldn't be possible to make DART user friendly. Also keep in mind big home lot sizes and small desity makes for a terrible public transportation system... everything is too far spread!

Yes a 30 mile commute can take an hour or more during rush hour in Dallas. This is usually for the commute into McKinney and places like that. That is why the DART Red Line is heavily used.