What do you think of the DART? (Dallas, Fort Worth: budget, condos)

[tallscot]

The people of Plano do not want to get out of DART.

I'm not sure what your source is on that, but just your opinion.

I'm also not sure how your opinion on what the polling would be refutes my points.

the City of Plano is not spending any of its money out of its municipal budget on DART

You are being misleading. The DART sales tax revenue is not counted as Plano revenue or expenditure.

In Plano, the sales tax is 8.25%. 6.25% goes to the state, 1% goes to DART, 1% goes to the city.

In Frisco, the sales tax is 8.25%. 6.25% goes to the state, 2% goes to Frisco.

If a citizen of Plano doesn't want to pay the DART tax, he or she can just shop in Frisco. What a wonderful thing. Most taxes are mandatory, but the DART tax is optional. The only optional one I ever heard of.

Sales tax is a major source of revenue for every city. Again, you are being very misleading.

With your logic, all taxes are optional. I can quit my job and not pay income tax. I can not drive my car and not pay the gas tax. I can not own a home and not pay property taxes.

I can't take you seriously anymore with these comments of yours. You aren't having a grown-up conversation about this issue. You are obfuscating.

By the way, I don't have to attempt to refute your claims. They have already been refuted in just about every city in America

Telling me that I'm wrong is not a position. You have to show some evidence and tell me which statement I made is false. You have to form an argument.

The arguments against your position, which of course you don't mention, overwhelmingly outweigh your points

I'm specifically talking about Plano. You have no arguments at all against my position. You are doing a lot of hand waving.

Do you believe that everyone else is wrong and you are the only one who sees the light?

Of the two of us, you are the only one speaking for other people.

Tell me, specifically, where I am wrong.

In an era where we pay $3 per gallon one year and $4 per gallon the next, and only God knows how much 5 years from now, the demand for rail transit from places that do not currently have it will be enormous

You aren't paying attention.

Light rail is not a solution because it can't carry enough people. Right now, DART is carrying around 600 people per day from Plano. You think it can carry the tens of thousands that go down Central every day? It can't, even at full capacity.

The maximum number of people each train can hold is 225. There are 15 trains leaving Parker Station between 7 am and 9 am. That means a maximum of 3,375 people can take the train between 7-9am. And since those trains are full leaving Parker, that means nobody could be picked up at 15th Street station or any other station until somebody gets off.

The solution for high gas prices is to increase the supply of oil and start using engine technology that doesn't require oil.

Currently, Frisco, Irving, and Carrollton are exploring the ways of establishing a commuter rail line to Dallas on the Burlington rail corridor

Correction, some people are exploring ways of establishing commuter rail lines there. They can't pay for it, though, because it's really expensive.

Their people want a way to commute to Las Colinas and downtown Dallas without spending $20 dollars per day on gasoline, or driving cars the size of motor scooters.

Correction, some people want a way to commute to Las Colinas and dowtown Dallas...and it doesn't cost $20. At $4 a gallon (it's $3.79 at 7-11 in Plano) you would need to use 5 gallons per day. So a car that only gets 15 mpg would need to travel 75 miles per day to use up $20 worth of gas.

When you are dishonest like that, you lose credibility.

But let's use your logic that you used when you said the sales tax is optional. If you don't want to commute to downtown or Las Colinas, don't work there. It's optional. Get a job in Plano or Frisco...or move to Las Colinas.

Once again, I'm specifically talking about light rail, not public transportation as a whole.

If Frisco wants to be part of DART, they will need to vote to lose half of their sales tax revenue that goes to parks, libraries, police, fire so that .5% of their population can take a train, assuming that it's possible to get a DART line from downtown to Frisco in a way that wouldn't create a 2-hour trip.

A rapid bus line would make a lot more sense.

[Spade]

This is my opinion. I like light rail. I like what it offers. I like rail regardless. It helps densify cities and it takes much stress off the minds of the citizens. I think with as great a system that DC has, light rail would be a boon for the area. Both heavy rail and light rail can co-exist. But it is what it is. "Light" rail. Meaning, it doesn't carry a large capacity. You probably need 12-14 cars to equal as many people that are on 6 cars for the DC rail system. Where am I going with this? I believe light rail is ideal for cities like Memphis, Raleigh, Charlotte, and San Antonio. Metro areas hovering around 2 million or lower. Heck, even Phoenix would probably need more light rail instead of heavy rail than Dallas.

Dallas? NO. It is now big enough to have heavy rail operations and big enough to not only have just that form of getting around the city. Especially on the Dallas side of the MSA alone. Dallas is not the densest city in the nation by far. But it does have pockets inside loop 12. For the record, I think Houston is in the same boat with Dallas. Two metro areas that has a population of over 6 million but has no heavy rail system on par with what you see in the Northeast, Chicago, Westcoast, or even Atlanta and Miami even though those two don't see high ridership numbers. I think Houston and Dallas has the potential to be like DC or the Bay.

4 million plus live on the Dallas side and shows no signs of stopping and if they team up with Ft. Worth to form a North Texas transit agency, and heavy rail became the main operation for the agency, I have no doubts that it would be successful. I doubt tallscot would complain about the heavy rail system like he is for light rail. I think his remarks on the ridership numbers for Plano is justified. That's a very small number. But DC suburbs have rail and they have large ridership numbers as well. I know a heavy rail system for Plano would work.

North Texans want rail. It's obvious. But if it doesn't take you anywhere, than why bother. I do know about the TOD's that are being build now but people will have to wait until they are built. But heavy rail IMO would be so much better for Dallas than light rail. Light rail does it's job. To bad the US government makes it so expensive to build a single line now. The DFW area is prime for a system like San Francisco or Washington DC. Likewise, the DC area is prime for a DART system like Dallas. A light rail line to Adam's Morgan or Georgetown in DC would work wonders since they don't have direct rail transportation to those areas.

Sorry to type so much.

[Texan#1]

Originally Posted by tallscot

If Allen, McKinney and Frisco are smart, they will never vote for DART. If they do, they will see a huge drop in the amount of money they will have for libraries, parks, police, fire...

Wow Im shocked... that's all i have to say.

[calmdude]

Originally Posted by tallscot

Plano spends 30% of its entire city budget on less than .2% of the population.

This is an eye-popping amount ! Would it be cheaper to give every rider cab fare?

[aceplace]

Tallscot, I think you're spoiling for a debate, if not quite a fight. While I enjoy a debate if there are two interesting sides to explore, the issue of providing rail transportation is not really debatable. The issue was settled a long time ago. Virtually every city of an appropriate size in the world provides rail transit for its people. And cities in the USA are falling into line with this universal paradigm. By speaking against this common trend, you have a strong burden of proof, and an even stronger need to raise anyone's interest.

So you have an argument that supposedly exposes the shortcomings of the DART system? Well, a clever debater can come up with arguments against virtually anything. That doesn't make them meaningful or valid or really that compelling. The people in the DART service area have decided that the benefits of the DART system outweigh the shortcomings. The people of almost every major city in the world believe that rail transit is worth it.

The last time Plano held an election to accept or reject DART, the vote was 71% in favor. I don't see any indication that this level of support has changed.

Yup, with the direction the price of oil and gasoline is headed, the actual cost of driving 40 miles to downtown Dallas and back could easily look like $20 in a few years.

The new DART railcars could easily carry thousands of people per hour. Each car can hold 175 people, and with 3 cars to a train, and a train every 90 or 120 seconds, that's 15,750 people per hour. With an assumed commute window of 2 1/2 hours twice a day, that's almost 40,000 people in the morning, plus another 40,000 in the evening, just during commute hours. Pretty high capacity, in my opinion. Especially on just the North Red line. Since there are 8 other radiating lines that will be spoking from downtown Dallas (, plus the TRE, plus a Denton line coming into downtown from Irving, etc.), that's a heck of a lot of capacity on our transit system.

The eventual consequence is that people and commerce and jobs will be even more attracted to areas near DART stations, and places with poor transit connections will be seen as less desirable, with reduced property values. The farther you get from a DART station, the more ghetto the neighborhood will be.

Buses? Don't tell me about buses. People are willing to ride trains, but they consider buses as socially beneath them. Rolling receptacles for the dregs of society. Is that a fair attitude? No. I wish I lived in a world that was fair, but so far, I haven't found one. More practically, buses do not generate transit oriented development precisely because the lines can be easily moved. BRT, bus rapid transit, is somewhat more permanent because of its fixed stations and guideways, but it is less popular or useful than true rapid transit.

Mobility and transportation are one of the key components of a society, and roads do play a part... people have a need for occasional trips that do not fit into a structured transportation pattern such as commuting to work or to the entertainment you find in major destinations such as stadiums, theater districts, major parks, etc. And we also need trains and rail.

[Spade]

That is true about buses. They are less desirable than rail transportation and I ride both everyday in the DC area. People try to avoid the bus as much as possible but trains nobody has a problem with. I guess that's psychological.

[FarNorthDallas]

"Express" buses are okay. I have several co-workers that come in on express buses. They only run M-F and during peak rush hours and run from transit centers to downtown.

And as far as the train - are y'all counting all the people who stand up the whole way downtown? One time I counted 17 people standing in the stairwells in front of me. It was like a crowded elevator.

[aceplace]

Originally Posted by FarNorthDallas

"Express" buses are okay. I have several co-workers that come in on express buses. They only run M-F and during peak rush hours and run from transit centers to downtown.

And as far as the train - are y'all counting all the people who stand up the whole way downtown? One time I counted 17 people standing in the stairwells in front of me. It was like a crowded elevator.

Actually, that is the kind of bus ride that is somewhat acceptable to the middle class... essentially Greyhound-type buses with comfortable seats, and no stops, or few stops.

Yes, I was making a point about the maximum capacity of our LRV system. In order to reach this capacity, we'd need more railcars, of course, and probably have to rework some of our cross streets to tunnel under the DART tracks at an intersection, since a train every 2 minutes would allow for few cars to cross the tracks. But if we had that much demand (and we may someday) it would be cost-effective.

Actually our system is really LRRT, for Light Rail Rapid Transit. A DART line such as the north Red line has comparatively few street crossings, and has a dedicated right-of-way, so it can disregard any competition with automobiles and just go full blast from station to station. Other systems, such as Salt Lake City's TRAX or Portland's MAX, run in the street and have to contend with traffic... this is where the loss of capacity comes in. The Portland system does manage, however, to move about 90,000 people per day. Currently, we're moving over 60,000 rides per day on Light Rail and another 8 to 10 thousand per day on the TRE. When the new Rowlett and Green and Orange lines are completed in late 2013, we should double the ridership figure to 120,000 rides per day. Plus whatever growth happens with the TRE. Plus the riders coming into Dallas on the new DCTA (Denton County Transit Authority) trains. There will also be some added rider numbers from the Fort Worth T system on the Grapevine line, transferring to DART rail at the DFW airport station.

[lh_newbie]

Since Aceplace brought up the burden of proof, and I was looking over the Plano city website at their budget - I'm going to ask Talscot to provied proof for this supposed 30% of the city's budget going to DART.

[FarNorthDallas]

Originally Posted by aceplace

Actually, that is the kind of bus ride that is somewhat acceptable to the middle class... essentially Greyhound-type buses with comfortable seats, and no stops, or few stops.

They are just garden variety DART buses on the express routes. Nothing special. And my co-workers said they are becoming more and more crowded and people are having to stand up.