What do you think of the DART? (Houston, Dallas: maintenance, apartment)

[aceplace]

There will be a second rail line in downtown Dallas, probably much of it underground. In addition, the City of Dallas is working with DART to design a set of streetcar lines to provide access to destinations in between the inner DART stations. Apparently, this is being done in conjunction with the second downtown line.

[aceplace]

Originally Posted by ctrres

Bus Rapid Transit is a functional failure in the few places where it's been put together, often at great cost. The suspensions on the buses are rickety almost new off the assembly line, with passengers buffeted and jolted around in their seats on pathways that consist of hastily paved concrete.

The cars can't be connected into tandems; a driver is required for each bus. Safe distances between each must maintained accordingly.

In narrow passageways, including tunnels, the buses are necessarily very slow enough for the drivers to actively navigate against the walls at every moment, taking a toll on the operator's acuity, energy and the schedule's timetable.

For a few dollars more, they could lay a rail bed, string a catenary above and greatly speed up the system, increase capacity and smooth out the ride.

Satellite cities on light rail rarely see increased development around stations--particularly through preëstablished outlying centers--until decades later. The chances of development greatly increase with the ridership of a system.

There is a greater chance of manned missions to Pluto before Dallas gets a BART- or WMATA Metrorail-style heavy rail. The Washington DC Metro was initially built out for around 11 billion dollars. That's not 11 billion in today's dollars--it's 11 billion in 1970s dollars.

It is estimated that extending the Orange line west to Dulles airport, already mostly inside just SR 267 Dulles Toll Road easements, at grade, after a short detour underneath Tyson's Corner, will cost 3 billion dollars.

Planning for BART was underway in the 1940s, when Dallas County (and adjacent counties excluding Tarrant) optimistically counted maybe 500,000 people.

A second railway is needed in downtown Dallas--it should be a tunnel. It should not be located adjacent to the existing transit mall, but should be offset by several blocks, or intersect with the existing line squarely.

Interesting observations about the value or lack of it with BRT. (Bus Rapid Transit). Although Dallas has a BRT line on Northwest Highway in its 2030 plan, as well as a BRT line going due east to Casa Linda.

Heavy rail is looking like obsolete technology. It takes a long time to expand the system because of the cost, and light rail running in a dedicated corridor as LRRT (Light Rail Rapid Transit) has much of the benefit. I don't see heavy rail being adopted by any cities that don't currently have it. It would take a financial miracle for Los Angeles to find the money to extend its Wilshire line to Santa Monica or even to the San Diego freeway next to Westwood. And the Feds would rather make more cities happy by spending less per city on a light rail system rather than a huge dollop for a couple of miles of heavy rail.

[DWong]

Heavy rail is looking like obsolete technology. It takes a long time to expand the system because of the cost, and light rail running in a dedicated corridor as LRRT (Light Rail Rapid Transit) has much of the benefit. I don't see heavy rail being adopted by any cities that don't currently have it. It would take a financial miracle for Los Angeles to find the money to extend its Wilshire line to Santa Monica or even to the San Diego freeway next to Westwood. And the Feds would rather make more cities happy by spending less per city on a light rail system rather than a huge dollop for a couple of miles of heavy rail.[/quote]

Agreed, transportation costs are far too costly esp here in SoCal and I'm sure anywhere else- heck to buy the land would bankrupt most cities. Maybe the city planners of the 1950's should have thought a little ahead of time eh?

[DWong]

Originally Posted by aceplace

Outdoor malls are popular in Dallas and Houston, and many other magnet cities, regardless of weather.

I've been to outdoor malls when the weather isn't pleasant... they're very slow. Much harder to make a profit if 20% of your days are lost due to weather.. but I guess they just shop when the weather clears anyways

[ctrres]

Originally Posted by aceplace

Although Dallas has a BRT line on Northwest Highway in its 2030 plan, as well as a BRT line going due east to Casa Linda.

I'm fine with glorified bus routes. Especially crosstown ones.

[aceplace]

Originally Posted by DWong

I've been to outdoor malls when the weather isn't pleasant... they're very slow. Much harder to make a profit if 20% of your days are lost due to weather.. but I guess they just shop when the weather clears anyways

That doesn't seem to be a problem in the summer, especially when you can park immediately in front of the store you're going to. And also, people in Texas are pretty much desensitized to the summer weather, at least for the time it takes to go from one shop to another.

The developer likes outdoor malls because he eliminates the costs of maintaining indoor corridors, which are expensive to heat, cool and clean.

[DWong]

Originally Posted by aceplace

That doesn't seem to be a problem in the summer, especially when you can park immediately in front of the store you're going to. And also, people in Texas are pretty much desensitized to the summer weather, at least for the time it takes to go from one shop to another.

The developer likes outdoor malls because he eliminates the costs of maintaining indoor corridors, which are expensive to heat, cool and clean.

I would think the outdoor ones would be preferred for developers esp in Tx where electricity is $$. Well, I wasn't thinking of heat, but rain/storms. Heck I love when the mall when it's slow myself, great parking and no lines! Not to mention be the only one taking advantage of sales.

[aceplace]

Originally Posted by DWong

I would think the outdoor ones would be preferred for developers esp in Tx where electricity is $$. Well, I wasn't thinking of heat, but rain/storms. Heck I love when the mall when it's slow myself, great parking and no lines! Not to mention be the only one taking advantage of sales.

Well, even Portland, Oregon, with its eternal drizzling rain, has an outdoor mall.

Rain in Dallas is not like coastal California rain. Dallas rain is a quick thunderstorm that pours for 15 minutes and then goes away. San Francisco just drizzles all day long. Of course that doesn't hurt sales downtown.

I think that the retail tenants usually pay the cost of utilities inside the shops, so the developer is completely off the hook for heating and cooling,. The only power costs would be outdoor lighting.

[DWong]

Originally Posted by aceplace

Well, even Portland, Oregon, with its eternal drizzling rain, has an outdoor mall.

Rain in Dallas is not like coastal California rain. Dallas rain is a quick thunderstorm that pours for 15 minutes and then goes away. San Francisco just drizzles all day long. Of course that doesn't hurt sales downtown.

I think that the retail tenants usually pay the cost of utilities inside the shops, so the developer is completely off the hook for heating and cooling,. The only power costs would be outdoor lighting.

Wow, did not know bout the Portland thing. But again, one of my first comments when the TX family visits is that all our malls (almost ) are outdoor. I see, rain nonetheless that goes anytime and comes, would put a hamper on shopping, not to mention cold windy days too (never been more cold than a day in central TX w/ strong wind blowing in my face)

Ya, if it were not for that SF mall shopping would be slow in the area w the constant drizzle. But in the same way I guess y'all are used to heat, Bay people are used to the drizzle. Socal, thank goodness now until October 75 degrees w/ no rain and sunshine... this is what we call the sunshine tax!

As for who pay the electricity - who knows it is $$ out of someone's bottomline? Heres a funny fact... the most profitable mall in the US is the South Coast Plaza mall in Costa Mesa CA, but guess what.... it's INDOOR! So there goes that theory....

[Spade]

Originally Posted by DWong

Good post. Hey who wouldn't want rail? but a system life Sf or DC could never work in Dallas. Like you said it does have to take you somewhere you need to be and the mindset of Texans (believe me I'm married to one) is big. Big houses w/ land. Well hate to break it to y'all, but that isn't gonna fly w/ a railing system.

Having it get you to the airport is a good idea. That will be it's most probably use, but outside of that, y'all are too far spread out w/ 3,000 people a sq mile it could never reach it's potential. And that's just Dallas, FW is far less so is the surrounding cities.

I would recommend getting use to the car... maybe going w/ a hybrid....

Well you have to put the stations in areas for people to go. If DC put a system somewhere by Anacostia river, it would see horrible ridership numbers. Put them in historical areas, attractions, and places where people can easily get to work. In DC, stations are put in historic neighborhoods like Foggy Bottom/GWU but also placed directly in the middle of working areas like Farragut North. You must have a balance. I think it would work in the DFW area. Density is part of the story. But not the entire story. BTW, I know that there will probably never be another heavy rail system in the US. Just voicing that it would be another option in the area.

Dallas as of 2000 was around 3000 people per sq mile. I won't be surprised if the density is around 4000 by the time 2010 hits. Dallas is working very hard to increase it's density and they want to increase it. The citizens want increased density. Dallas will never have New York type of density. As far as the car. One key to rail is to get people out of the cars. To get people from behind the exhaust pipe, the traffic jams, the isolation it provides and get people to start walking and start mingling. It also causes less stress and worries. You don't have to worry about the maintenance and drunk driving. You all can enjoy the night instead of 1 holding out. Less freeways and more rail. If aceplace is correct and Dallas receives up to 120,000 riders after the construction is finished, for a light rail system, that is pretty darn good and it can only get better. Dallas will not continue to prosper and mature by having only one form of transportation and not have an alternative.