Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare? (Dallas, Plano: 2010, apartments)

[Lakewooder]

Originally Posted by momof2dfw

These professions as well as other "dirty businesses" have already attracted a LOT of attention from financial investors that are actually paying attention and not concerned w/ exactly HOW someone makes their income. One that is a good friend of ours has said over and over there is TON of money that these people are making and it suprises a lot of people. I know of one guy that he and his son (now grown and taken over the company) are VERY wealthy and if you heard what they did for a living most would snub their nose but it is a job that is NEEDED and they are one of the few in ALL of the Dallas area and been here for a long time. There is probably not a house, apt complex, road, office bldg, etc that has not been touched in SOME WAY by their company.

THESE are the companies and the people that ARE obtaining the "American Dream" even if it is in the suburbs. They are the ones willing to do a job that might get their hands dirty to get their company off the ground but they KNOW there is plenty of money to be made in it and if they are good at it they will grow. If they watch how they spend they can retire early and be financially set.

Exactly - the "Millionaire Next Door" vs. the "Salaried Wealthy" with tenuous ties to their employer.

[grindin]

Originally Posted by momof2dfw

These professions as well as other "dirty businesses" have already attracted a LOT of attention from financial investors that are actually paying attention and not concerned w/ exactly HOW someone makes their income. One that is a good friend of ours has said over and over there is TON of money that these people are making and it suprises a lot of people. I know of one guy that he and his son (now grown and taken over the company) are VERY wealthy and if you heard what they did for a living most would snub their nose but it is a job that is NEEDED and they are one of the few in ALL of the Dallas area and been here for a long time. There is probably not a house, apt complex, road, office bldg, etc that has not been touched in SOME WAY by their company.

THESE are the companies and the people that ARE obtaining the "American Dream" even if it is in the suburbs. They are the ones willing to do a job that might get their hands dirty to get their company off the ground but they KNOW there is plenty of money to be made in it and if they are good at it they will grow. If they watch how they spend they can retire early and be financially set.

I've always believed that we all have a purpose in life. Some people are meant for one thing, and some are meant for others. For example, I don't have the brain for Calculus and Biochemistry, so thank God there are people out there who are meant to do that. My mom, a school guidance counselor, has always told me that everyone is NOT college material! She was very encouraging towards those whom she felt would be better off attending the district vocational school and learning a trade. Like I said, I know painters who make a great deal more money than me! And they don't have a boatload of student loans to pay off either...

[grindin]

Originally Posted by Lakewooder

Exactly - the "Millionaire Next Door" vs. the "Salaried Wealthy" with tenuous ties to their employer.

Now I can't stand TD Jakes, but he does have one idea that has stuck with me for a long time - having more than one stream of income! I'm in grad school right now, establishing my career in University Relations, and I'm obtaining my teaching license, so I can eventually teach as an adjunct faculty at the community college that I work at in the afternoons or evenings after my day job.

And learning how to invest and becoming an eBay business king...

I don't want to end up like folks in my family who are always having to depend on one paycheck for the rest of my life.

[unexpected]

Originally Posted by Lakewooder

I believe West Plano also has 26,000 apartment units and we know what happens to them after a few years. We've already heard several times here that Plano is 'too old' and some people choose schools further north because Plano schools are now becoming dominated by minorities...

So just wait you will start seeing the same prejudices Dallas and Garland have had to deal with over the last 30 years while hearing endlessly about how great the newest suburb is (because it's new and whiter). Then you will understand where a lot of longtimers are coming from...

This is purely speculation, and it doesn't make it right. You use this an crutch to justify your animosity towards the suburbs, and I don't think it's fair. It seems like the "eye for an eye" approach, rather than the "look, I can see why you chose Plano, and I'm glad that it works for you, but you should be aware that Lakewood has really good schools, and man, being able to bike around White Rock Lake every morning, I would never trade that up (Which it IS!...I can never figure out why Plano won't put in a trail that extends more than 2 miles).

I understand your point about suburbs, and how if they're far away from the city, they'll die. You can see this heavily in Arizona, Nevada, etc. I don't think this will happen, because Plano has a really good, solid economic base.

Other cities, I'm not sure about. Frisco seems to be all about retail. They don't have a large office park yet, though I know they have plans for one, and it'll be interesting to see what happens there. McKinney, same thing. Coppell, well, it's close to irving at the airport. What other 'burb did we miss?

White collar jobs are absolutely crucial to building a national "presence" which is why they're inherently more valued. On average, they come with higher salaries and a more educated workforce, which is more desirable for a city.

What will happen as Plano gets older? Well, the apartment complexes within 5 miles of major employement centers will probably get redeveloped as luxury apartments or condos or whatever, just like Uptown will.

Yea, the apartments in East Plano could potentially turn into a drug-riddled area, full of crime- it's a very real possibility that you can't ignore, and that's why the East Plano revitalization is so crucial to plano's long-term prospects. Worse comes to worst, West Plano can be like Lakewood, only 4 miles from the ghetto (I kid....)

[Lakewooder]

Well if you were my age (oh boy how does that sound?) you would remember when Richardson was the 'it' suburb and how RISD was code for "white schools". So it's not just pure speculation, it's based on history and studying real estate all my adult life (yeah I do have a BBA in RE and a broker's license plus I own properties and associate with others with similar credentials). I also lived in Houston as it busted and later in Dallas when RE crashed - though not as much as Houston.

Any society which worships the new is bound to be hurt as things get older. That's one thing I've never understood - how such large numbers of people write-off everything that isn't new. But then again I remember several people who turned up their noses at M-Street homes in the $70-$80K range a bit more than 20 years ago.

[grindin]

So, will Gainesville, Sherman, Trenton, Terrell (I could tell how lopsided D/FW's growth was since Terrell still seems unchanged from 20 years ago but McKinney/Allen/Frisco have changed tremendously) and Greenville become the new "hot" suburbs 20 years from now? God I hope not!

[Lakewooder]

I am especially worried about Sherman! And I'm not sure you would want to go through Greenville, either (that's an inside joke for people who have been around here for a long time).

[loves2read]

from what I see I think city government in many of these smaller towns needs to be thinking ahead--which is asking a lot of some of those guys--and trying to find long-term business opportunities for their towns---
and I think some parts of the country should seriously consider going back to horses and mules instead of the engine
the manure yields methane--they reproduce fairly readily -- have a longer productive lifespan than most autos--
the bad part is they eat corn which is expensive since it is a biofuel source--not just a bio-food source...and they do require more maintenance than most people are willing to give on a daily basis--

maybe the Amish will be the least effected by the coming energy crunch/culture crash

some areas like the guy mentioned in the article who was driving over 200 MILES a day to commute--that is insane and definitely out of whack--
I know that people on the Eastern seaboard states do commute that far sometimes via the train service--which we in TX are totally out of the loop on....and have a long, expensive road/track to go in creating that type of mass transit---

probably (unfortunately) at some time in the next 20 years the way people are moving into this area most of the Metroplex is going to be wall to wall concrete

hopefully someone will have invented some type of monorail system or moving tramway to connect areas from at least west side of FTW to Garland and Frisco with some system that does not require slave labor or selling your unborn child to get a monthly pass (where is Issac Asimov when you need him)
also read short story about future life where most people just lived in their own little cave spaces and life was totally automated for them--never really had physical contact with other humans at all--telecommuting to the nth degree...

[killer2021]

Originally Posted by awecelot

As the price of gas rises, people will generally have a desire to live closer to their place of employment. This will cause land values in areas near large employment centers to appreciate at a faster pace relative to land values in areas which have a decidedly "bedroom community" atmosphere.

lol thats right. I have been a long time home buying advocate since buying a home in dallas is generally cheaper than renting. However when you factor in the cost to commute and the other limitations on owning I'd rather just rent close to my work location.

[Mardrew]

Originally Posted by unexpected

Please point me to data that says that Garland has more jobs, then, let's say, Plano.

I know you're fond of relying on anecdotal evidence, but I flat out believe that the statement "Garland has more jobs than any other suburb in this area" to be 100% false, so I would like you to provide me with some data that says otherwise.

You can get data on jobs per city around DFW at

Research & Information Services - NCTCOG.org

They have data for 2000; and estimates upto 2030.
According to the 2005 data (not sure if 2005 is hard data or estimate)
Dallas has 1.158 million Jobs
Forth Worth has 504K jobs
Irving has 194K Jobs
Arlington has 155K
Plano has 124K
Richardson has 110K jobs
Garland has 102K jobs