Should Plano and other cities ditch paying for DART? (Dallas: property tax, live in)

[Spade]

Originally Posted by DWong

Oh really quick, I don't live in LA allthough frequent it 2-3x a month.

And LA mass transit is a failure.....
Allthough it has 2.5x the ridership of DART, it has done little to alleviate traffic. Too bad w/ mass transit you can't scrap it all when it doesn't work.

see how great objectivity is?

Again, mass transit is not built to alleviate traffic. It's to offer an alternative to the people of the area. No world city is going to survive by just one form of transit system and find me a successful city that has survived w/o a mass transit system? To expect mass transit to alleviate traffic will bring nothing but big disappointment. NYC has the best mass transit system in the country and the traffic is STILL terrible by car/bus on the streets of NYC. Same with Chicago, same with Washington, DC, same with San Francisco.

[DWong]

Originally Posted by Spade

Again, mass transit is not built to alleviate traffic. It's to offer an alternative to the people of the area. No world city is going to survive by just one form of transit system and find me a successful city that has survived w/o a mass transit system? To expect mass transit to alleviate traffic will bring nothing but big disappointment. NYC has the best mass transit system in the country and the traffic is STILL terrible by car/bus on the streets of NYC. Same with Chicago, same with Washington, DC, same with San Francisco.

Umm... I agree it is an alternative, but any mass transportation system will tell you the point is to get less congestion on the freeways and more people on the rails. It wasn't the Main idea back when it stated WAY back when, but who would of thought that the freeways in the 70's would be this jammed packed? Thus the mass transit, however traffic is worse....

[tycobb2522]

Thus the mass transit, however traffic is worse....

And will continue to get worse as population increases. What is so mysterious about that? It would be even more so if not for mass transit, however.

[aceplace]

Originally Posted by DWong

Umm... I agree it is an alternative, but any mass transportation system will tell you the point is to get less congestion on the freeways and more people on the rails.

There is less congestion on the freeways because of DART. If there were no DART, people would drive and there would then be more congestion.

Using DART is a relative advantage in that travel time is predictable. Travel time on a freeway is highly unpredictable and can exceed the "normal" travel time by 50% or even 100%.

[momof2dfw]

Originally Posted by tycobb2522

And will continue to get worse as population increases. What is so mysterious about that? It would be even more so if not for mass transit, however.

Originally Posted by aceplace

There is less congestion on the freeways because of DART. If there were no DART, people would drive and there would then be more congestion.

Using DART is a relative advantage in that travel time is predictable. Travel time on a freeway is highly unpredictable and can exceed the "normal" travel time by 50% or even 100%.

Guys, do you not realize that according to the almighty here the ONLY thing that IS relevant concerning the ridership of DART is the % of the population that uses it daily.

The fact that fuel prices went up and people started using it is not relevant.
The fact that more people ride DART because it now reaches their place of residence and employment whereas it did not a few years ago is not relevant.
The fact that DART did not have near the length of rail lines a few years ago compared to now is not relevant.
The fact that during rush hours DART is packed full and at full capacity is not relevant.
The fact that the DART park & ride lots are overflowing and having to add on because of the higher demand is not relevant.
The fact that DART is still expanding and not even close to being at "build out" for rail is not relevant.
The fact that people in these areas that DART has not reached yet are wanting it sooner so they can use it is not relevant.
The fact that DART could be at full capacity a good bit of the time is not relevant because ridership is ONLY important if a larger percentage of the population used it. Never mind that DART does not have the room for the increase in ridership...... we are supposed to just wiggle our noses and make it happen.
The fact that the DART and TRE trains carrying people to/from the AAC for events is JAM PACKED with standing room only is not relevant.
The fact that if DART stopped today and stood still there would be thousands and thousands of people that could not get to work because it is their only mode of transportation is not relevant.
The fact that if DART again came to a halt there would be thousands and thousands of cars added to our already congested highways and side streets during rush hour is not relevant.

These things according to the one that knows more than us are NOT relevant when it comes to determining if DART is successful or not. Don't you guys get that by now.

[lh_newbie]

Originally Posted by momof2dfw

Guys, do you not realize that according to the almighty here the ONLY thing that IS relevant concerning the ridership of DART is the % of the population that uses it daily.

that's why I compared HOV lanes and light rail in dallas, then asked Mr Dwong if we should get rid of HOV lanes as well. He never responded because it didn't fit into his agenda.

[momof2dfw]

Originally Posted by lh_newbie

that's why I compared HOV lanes and light rail in dallas, then asked Mr Dwong if we should get rid of HOV lanes as well. He never responded because it didn't fit into his agenda.

Same reason why he never acknowledged that he ASSumed wrong that homeowners paid property taxes to DART.

As far as SOME of the HOV lanes........ they could be gone away with. The one in particular that is of no use at all is on 75 from Richardson to Allen. imho

[DWong]

Just according to the article did they say Plano raised property taxes recently in order to help pay the 60 million or so to DART.

Just quoting the article- it could be wrong ya know?

HOV lanes. Guess what - there's more people using that than the DART and at a fraction of the cost. I like em!

Hey good news, looks like this post got the attention of the Fort Worth Star Telegram and guess who is contributing much of the info - yours truly

[momof2dfw]

Originally Posted by DWong

Just according to the article did they say Plano raised property taxes recently in order to help pay the 60 million or so to DART.

Just quoting the article- it could be wrong ya know?

HOV lanes. Guess what - there's more people using that than the DART and at a fraction of the cost. I like em!

Hey good news, looks like this post got the attention of the Fort Worth Star Telegram and guess who is contributing much of the info - yours truly

NO!!! It did NOT say that the city of Plano HAD to "raise their property taxes because of DART". The article you quoted was a BLOG and an OP-ED piece of journalism. mama-mia.... Do you NOT know what that is? It is a persons OPINION and is not always based on FACT! The person that wrote that was saying that IF Plano was not part of DART they may not have had to raise their property tax rate. HOWEVER, it is not set in stone that in FACT they would not have had to raise them otherwise based on OTHER economic factors. yayayayaya.......

The article IS wrong. It is an OP-ED piece and is NOT fact. In essence the writer is saying that MAYBE if Plano did not participate in DART they MIGHT not have to raise their property taxes. What the piece fails to mention are the OTHER factors that are contributing to the need to raise property taxes. It also does not mention that Plano would ALREADY have an 8.25% sales tax and NOT be any part of DART nor get any public transit at all for their citizens but their citizens would still be paying the higher sales tax w/o the benefits of such. Other area cities that are not part of DART have had to ALSO raise their property taxes and have ALSO raised several years ago their sales tax to 8.25. Plano is lucky in that they are getting the benefit of their sales tax going to help pay for public transit for the same dollars their neighbors to the north are paying in taxes and not getting it.

Um, NO the HOV lanes do NOT get more people using them than the DART rail or buses. And they are TERRIBLY expensive, cause massive traffic delays due to their construction phases. The newest one on Central is closed 1/2 the time and NO ONE can use it. I'm pretty sure you don't know this since your not HERE in Dallas or Texas. Nor do you see the daily traffic, the buses, the rail or the lack of cars IN the HOV lanes. Nor do you see our daily news that constantly updates us on the expenses of putting in these HOV lanes.

You don't get it do you???? You just don't get it. No question about it.

[lh_newbie]

Op-ed = can't be a REAL journalist