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Old 05-24-2009, 09:40 PM
 
Location: North Texas
23,625 posts, read 31,227,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unexpected View Post
what's funny is that people STILL think that everyone who lives in Frisco commutes to Dallas everyday- as if Dallas exists in a vacuum, and the suburbs solely exist for people to commute back and forth from their jobs.

Newsflash: The suburbs are huge. Many of these suburbs would be the largest cities in other states. Many, many people that live in these suburbs also only commute to these suburbs.

While you guys may complain about that 30 minute drive, guess what? we never have to do it!

Saying that cities like Plano/Frisco are "going to be a wasteland in 15-20 years" is extremely shortsighted. the Plano area is a HUGE job center- it has as many jobs as downtown Dallas. If you work in Plano, living in Frisco is just fine.

Because land is a lot cheaper here than in downtown, you can build actual corporate campuses. Everyday, companies move to the "down-trodden" suburbs because it's closer to their employees and it's cheaper for them- so much so that when a company moves to Downtown Dallas, it's front page news, and everyone thinks is amazing. You simply don't hear about companies moving to the suburbs because it's happening all the time.

Honestly, who cares about this stuff so much? Arguing that Dallas is superior to any suburb is misguided. It's like arguing about different shades of white. Dallas is a good "living" city, but it's never going to be a ridiculously cool city (right now). If places like New York City, D.C, and San Francisco, were "10" cities, Dallas would be a "3" and the suburbs would be 2.5.

We spend all this time arguing about the .5 difference, when really, we need to focus on what Dallas needs to become a "10" level city. Once we do that, we can pursue things like the olympics and other major attractions to make dallas a true global city.

Truthfully I think what is holding back Dallas as a destination for middle-class families is the school district, the school district can be pretty bad. Even the "good" schools kind of scare people and the DISD has such a bad reputation that many people do not even consider living here unless they can afford private schools. However I do not consider brand-new schools superior to schools built 70 years ago and the teachers in the DISD are just as capable and devoted to their students as teachers in Frisco and Plano are, possibly more so. Their job is much more difficult!

If Dallas schools were full of primly-dressed white children I am sure some of the families who went to Plano and Frisco without considering Dallas might have settled in Dallas instead. That is my honest opinion. My parents sent me to private school but I knew many people who went to DISD schools since I grew up in Dallas and they were just as well educated as I was. Some of my best friends and some of the smartest people I know went to Dallas public schools and many are not even white. I am not saying you personally think this way, but a lot of people do whether they will admit it or not.

To some people the suburbs do not have to wait 10-20 years to become a wasteland, they already are! It depends on how you define "wasteland". To me they are kind of a wasteland because all of the houses look alike, the HOAs prohibit any neighborhood from developing their own character and personality, they are full of big box stores like Wal-Mart, Super Target, Ikea, chain restaurants like Chili's, TGI Friday's, On The Border, etc and they offer a dull homogenous experience at least as far as I am concerned. That works for some people, it does not work for me. But I am not going to criticize people for living in the suburbs because I don't care where they live. If they are happy living that way then I am happy for them. But don't call Dallas a dump or unhip because I doubt you guys come down here often enough to know. The same probably goes for us, though I do not know how someone could make the argument that Frisco is an energetic, trendy, progressive, or multi-cultural environment.
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Old 05-24-2009, 09:51 PM
 
4,306 posts, read 11,140,821 times
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I have lived in Dallas all my life and the problem I see with living in the city is cost. A family with a combined income of 100k would have a difficult time finding a home in a safe neighborhood with good schools. The vast majority of the teachers in DISD can't afford to live in the city. I remember when the city of Dallas was going to require police officers to live in the city proper. They backed off when they found out there is no places for them to live. Dallas has virtually no decent housing in the 100-200k range. Until this changes the burbs will continue to grow at a rapid pace.
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Old 05-24-2009, 10:07 PM
 
Location: North Texas
23,625 posts, read 31,227,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grainraiser View Post
I have lived in Dallas all my life and the problem I see with living in the city is cost. A family with a combined income of 100k would have a difficult time finding a home in a safe neighborhood with good schools. The vast majority of the teachers in DISD can't afford to live in the city. I remember when the city of Dallas was going to require police officers to live in the city proper. They backed off when they found out there is no places for them to live. Dallas has virtually no decent housing in the 100-200k range. Until this changes the burbs will continue to grow at a rapid pace.
You are right about that but it will not change.
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Old 05-25-2009, 02:11 AM
 
576 posts, read 1,586,890 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDGeek View Post

To some people the suburbs do not have to wait 10-20 years to become a wasteland, they already are! It depends on how you define "wasteland". To me they are kind of a wasteland because all of the houses look alike, the HOAs prohibit any neighborhood from developing their own character and personality, they are full of big box stores like Wal-Mart, Super Target, Ikea, chain restaurants like Chili's, TGI Friday's, On The Border, etc and they offer a dull homogenous experience at least as far as I am concerned. That works for some people, it does not work for me. But I am not going to criticize people for living in the suburbs because I don't care where they live. If they are happy living that way then I am happy for them. But don't call Dallas a dump or unhip because I doubt you guys come down here often enough to know. The same probably goes for us, though I do not know how someone could make the argument that Frisco is an energetic, trendy, progressive, or multi-cultural environment.
Newsflash: Dallas has a Wal-Mart, Super Target, and several chain restaurants. I've eaten at a Chili's in Dallas, I've eaten at a TGIF in Dallas, and I've eaten at an On the Border in Dallas. There actually is an on the border right on Knox-Henderson, right by Highland Park!!

You can point to unique mom and pop restaurants, but you know, the suburbs have them too. Plano for example, has wonderful Thai as Samui Thai, you can get amazing Indian Food at Iravat, You can get American homestyle (and breakfast anytime!!) at Poor Richard's, You can get Hawaii Fusion at Roy's, there's a Fogo De Chao in Addison, etc.

Another News Flash: The suburban schools aren't lilly-white either. You can look at this thread, and see that suburbs like Plano and Richardson are almost at a minority-majority. Frisco is 2/3 white, but I suspect that will quickly change in the next 10-15 years. It's not just about "white flight".

What's keeping Dallas from being a global city is not the school district- it's the lack of city vision to re-invent ourselves as some sort of cultural entity that's relevant on the global scene.

Don't get me wrong, Dallas is a great city for living- it has great job opportunities and the cost of living is low, and the schools are great, but no one ever comes here for vacation. I often struggle when friends come into town as to what to do- for the most part, dallas doesn't have enough consistent cultural entities that people can go to.

I know, people are going to say, "we have the meyerson, we have the arts district, etc., etc.", but we don't have the consistency and identity that city like NYC, LA, DC, San Franscisco, or Miami does.
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Old 05-25-2009, 05:57 AM
 
Location: North Texas
23,625 posts, read 31,227,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unexpected View Post
Newsflash: Dallas has a Wal-Mart, Super Target, and several chain restaurants. I've eaten at a Chili's in Dallas, I've eaten at a TGIF in Dallas, and I've eaten at an On the Border in Dallas. There actually is an on the border right on Knox-Henderson, right by Highland Park!!
I know we have those places in Dallas, I even go to them every once in a while. But we also have a lot of other options!

Quote:
You can point to unique mom and pop restaurants, but you know, the suburbs have them too. Plano for example, has wonderful Thai as Samui Thai, you can get amazing Indian Food at Iravat, You can get American homestyle (and breakfast anytime!!) at Poor Richard's, You can get Hawaii Fusion at Roy's, there's a Fogo De Chao in Addison, etc.
Fogo de Chao is great but it's not a mom and pop place, it's a chain with locations both in the USA and Brazil (and probably other countries too)! Roy's is also a chain. But there are some good mom and pop places in the suburbs too, one of my favorite Tex Mex restaurants is a mom and pop in Collin County and I will drive up there without complaint to go there! Of course there are exceptions on both sides but on balance Dallas has much more variety in terms of restaurants.

Quote:
Another News Flash: The suburban schools aren't lilly-white either. You can look at this thread, and see that suburbs like Plano and Richardson are almost at a minority-majority. Frisco is 2/3 white, but I suspect that will quickly change in the next 10-15 years. It's not just about "white flight".
From Wikipedia, using 2000 census statistics:

Richardson: "The racial makeup of the city was 75.39% White, 11.67% Asian, 6.18% African American, 0.45% Native American, 0.06% Pacific Islander, 3.65% from other races, and 2.60% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 10.26% of the population."

Plano: "The racial makeup of the city was 78.26% White, 5.02% Black, 0.36% Native American, 10.18% Asian, 0.04% Pacific Islander, 3.86% from other races, and 2.28% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 10.07% of the population."

Frisco: "The racial makeup of the city was 87.25% White, 3.76% African American, 0.38% Native American, 2.35% Asian, 0.03% Pacific Islander, 4.34% from other races, and 1.89% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 11.02% of the population."

Allen: "The racial makeup of the city was 87.14% White, 4.40% African American, 0.52% Native American, 3.73% Asian, 0.05% Pacific Islander, 2.41% from other races, and 1.75% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 6.98% of the population."

Dallas: "The racial makeup of Dallas was 56.9% White (30.5% non-Hispanic-White), 23.8% Black, 2.7% Asian, 0.9% Native American, 0.1% Pacific Islander, 16.9% from other races, and 1.2% from two or more races. 42.4% of the population was Hispanic or Latino of any race."

I don't think population trends in Plano or Frisco have shifted enough in 9 years to put them anywhere near majority/minority status. Dallas is close if not already there but the others are nowhere near it!

Quote:
What's keeping Dallas from being a global city is not the school district- it's the lack of city vision to re-invent ourselves as some sort of cultural entity that's relevant on the global scene.
That is a good point and one I have heard before, but first and foremost what attracts middle class families anywhere is a good school district. Not culture, not hipness, not brand-new homes. If Dallas schools had a good reputation we would be halfway there already. The people with the energy and vision to make Dallas better would be here and not in Plano or Frisco.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, Dallas is a great city for living- it has great job opportunities and the cost of living is low, and the schools are great, but no one ever comes here for vacation. I often struggle when friends come into town as to what to do- for the most part, dallas doesn't have enough consistent cultural entities that people can go to.
I never struggle with out of town visitors! Even ones that have been here before, I always manage to show them something they've never seen and they love it. Dallas also has a thriving arts scene. It's not New York, but it's still pretty good.

Quote:
I know, people are going to say, "we have the meyerson, we have the arts district, etc., etc.", but we don't have the consistency and identity that city like NYC, LA, DC, San Franscisco, or Miami does.
I know people in Dallas's art scene, both visual arts and music, who would disagree!
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:31 AM
 
576 posts, read 1,586,890 times
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It is interesting that the City-Data link on demographics and the wikipedia link on demographics are so different.

I don't think the Dallas area really has a problem with middle class families moving in- we have one of the highest growth rates in the country!!!

The restaurants that I provided were restaurants not in Dallas, and only in the suburbs. Frankly, I don't see what's so special about eating at a local restaurant vs. a chain, and I think this argument is overblown, but I'm confident that if I wanted to, I could eat at a different local restaurant 4-5 nights a week.

How old are you? I'm a Gen Y'er, and the only thing "fun" to do when my friends come to dallas is eat, drink, and shop. ugh.
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:41 AM
 
1,377 posts, read 3,651,290 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unexpected View Post
How old are you? I'm a Gen Y'er, and the only thing "fun" to do when my friends come to dallas is eat, drink, and shop. ugh.
Six Flags, Cowboys, Mavs, Stars, Rangers, NASCAR race, concerts, Nokia Center shows, live music shows all the time. I have some friends in a hard rock band there and they had shows every few weeks. There's PLENTY to do in Dallas, PLEASE!! Zoo, Aquarium.......
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:47 AM
 
Location: North Texas
23,625 posts, read 31,227,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unexpected View Post
It is interesting that the City-Data link on demographics and the wikipedia link on demographics are so different.
The wikipedia links are 2000 census results. I would not assume that the demographics are the same today but I do not think they have changed that much. We won't know for sure until the results of the 2010 census come out but when someone tells me "Richardson is 75% white" I have no trouble believing it.

Quote:
I don't think the Dallas area really has a problem with middle class families moving in- we have one of the highest growth rates in the country!!!
I guess it depends on what you consider "middle class". Some of the middle class families in Frisco or Plano could afford a great house in Dallas but it becomes out of reach when they factor in the cost of private school. Areas like Preston Hollow are not middle class areas, older homes there can cost anywhere from $300,000 to $600,000 and the new builds are into the millions. That is not middle class. The same story is starting to happen in areas west of Preston Hollow near TJ and White high schools, prices are going up and up.

Quote:
The restaurants that I provided were restaurants not in Dallas, and only in the suburbs. Frankly, I don't see what's so special about eating at a local restaurant vs. a chain, and I think this argument is overblown, but I'm confident that if I wanted to, I could eat at a different local restaurant 4-5 nights a week.
I find places like Chili's and TGI Friday's incredibly boring. Some of the mom and pop places in Dallas have owners or the owner's kids running the place, they have much more of a stake in good food and good service and I enjoy meals more at places like that. It's more intimate. Not every mom and pop restaurant has great food but I would rather take a chance on a locally-owned restaurant than have another meal at TGI Friday's, it's so boring.

Quote:
How old are you? I'm a Gen Y'er, and the only thing "fun" to do when my friends come to dallas is eat, drink, and shop. ugh.
There is more to Dallas than that, much more. Plus if you think eating, drinking, and shopping are boring, the suburbs must be hell for you because that is mostly all there is to do there. They are chiefly bedroom communities, not entertainment districts. I am not Gen Y, sadly I am older than that.
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
10,202 posts, read 16,762,277 times
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TGI Fridays (as well as Olive Garden and many of the other big chains) do not cook the food in their restaurants. It's cooked offsite and shipped in, nuked and served.

Sure some of it tastes OK, but so do some of the frozen meals in the market. Only difference is you're paying a lot more for it at Fridays.
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Old 05-25-2009, 11:07 AM
 
6,585 posts, read 22,409,761 times
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In the case of Richardson demographics, it seems like the school district racial/ethnic make up is a lot different from the city make up due to the fact 60% of Richardson ISD is in the city of Dallas and there are a lot of white senior citizens in the city of Richardson.
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