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Old 02-03-2010, 05:27 PM
 
12 posts, read 25,533 times
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Hi. We purchased our first home a few years ago. We were concerned about possible foundation problems because of one crack in the exterior bricks, and mainly because we'd heard foundation problems were common in Texas, particularly the DFW area. There were no foundation issues on the seller's disclosure, and the general home inspection went fine, but we decided to hire a structural engineer as a safegaurd before agreeing to buy the house.
We hired a local, licensed structural engineer. He explained the crack in the bricks was not from foundation issues, and was simply cosmetic. (It was obvious the previous owners had attempted to hide this crack with some sort of paint or other substance) There was some slope in the floors, but the engineer said this was from uneven concrete under the floors, not the foundation. He said the foundation was great, there were no problems, and that we had "a house more solid and reliable" than he had seen in a while in this area. We purchased the home.

We are now thinking of selling, and had an engineer come out before placing on the market, to inform us ahead of time of any problems that might exist so we could address them. What was uncovered was horrifying. We have major foundation issues, apparently going to require massive work, probably around $15-20k We were told that the engineer we used when buying had his license revoked, and had many complaints for ok'ing problem houses. This previous engineer who cleared our house went around our house measuring things with only a level - we did not know then that this was not proper procedure, and was nowhere near sufficient. Had we known of any foundation problem at all, we would not have bought the house. Or at a minimum, (but unlikely) we may have asked the seller to fix the problem...we had already passed on one house with foundation issues. The new engineer said the brick crack was in fact from the foundation problem, and not cosmetic as the previous engineer said, and the sloped floor was from nearly 5 inches of foundation sinking on one end.
My question is this: Do we have any recourse against the engineer we used, for improperly inspecting our house and/or covering up the existing issues? Several years have passed - we purchased the house in 2002. I realize the problem could have worsened over time, but according to the new engineer and foundation experts, the signs were in fact there at the time the previous engineer inspected the house. (sloped floors, cracked brick, etc) Are we just stuck now?
Thanks in advance for any help!
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Old 02-03-2010, 07:00 PM
 
Location: DFW
40,951 posts, read 49,189,517 times
Reputation: 55008
Any inspection is a snapshot of that day and time. A good attorney will argue you probably made it worse since 2002 by not properly maintaining the foundation. Brick cracking can be cosmetic to a degree depending on where it's located and how bad it is. Many times people do repair mortar cracking with new mortar and it will not match, it doesn't mean someones trying to hide anything.

Also, how old is the house ? It could have had repairs years ago that need to be adjusted. If it did was there a life time warranty ?

If the engineer has lost his license you probably have no recourse. It has been 7-8 years since you purchased and it would be a tough case to argue.

Where did you find the Engineer ? Was he recommended by someone ? Did he give you a full blown Engineers report with measurements and how do those measurements compare to the new engineers measurements ?

Did you have an actual unbiased engineer come out recently or just someone from a foundation company looking to sell you some work ?

Lot of questions to be answered.

Last edited by Rakin; 02-03-2010 at 07:44 PM..
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Old 02-03-2010, 07:30 PM
 
80 posts, read 248,041 times
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Agreed. So sorry but inspections done 8 years ago are worthless today. If he lost his license and is no longer in business there is nobody to go after. I would get a second opinion just to verify the scope of your current work needed. Good luck
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Old 02-03-2010, 08:58 PM
 
37,315 posts, read 59,869,570 times
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that is scary--
I wonder if your real estate agent recommended the engineer or if he is the one you used when you turned down the first home

we had only a home inspector -- not an engineer to come out--someone our real estate person recommended...frankly I would have felt better using an engineer but my husband thought that was overkill...
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Old 02-03-2010, 09:09 PM
 
Location: DFW
40,951 posts, read 49,189,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loves2read View Post
that is scary--
I wonder if your real estate agent recommended the engineer or if he is the one you used when you turned down the first home

we had only a home inspector -- not an engineer to come out--someone our real estate person recommended...frankly I would have felt better using an engineer but my husband thought that was overkill...
It usually is overkill for the average home since a good engineer can run $400 or more dollars. If I suspect a foundation issue I'll have the engineer out 1st before the general inspector. That way if there is a major foundation problem, you can terminate the contract without spending the additional money on the general inspection.

A general inspector will advise an engineer be consulted if they see a potential foundation problem.
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Old 02-03-2010, 10:02 PM
 
12 posts, read 25,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakin View Post
Many times people do repair mortar cracking with new mortar and it will not match, it doesn't mean someones trying to hide anything.

Also, how old is the house ? It could have had repairs years ago that need to be adjusted. If it did was there a life time warranty ?

Where did you find the Engineer ? Was he recommended by someone ? Did he give you a full blown Engineers report with measurements and how do those measurements compare to the new engineers measurements ?

Did you have an actual unbiased engineer come out recently or just someone from a foundation company looking to sell you some work ?

Lot of questions to be answered.
I wasn't insinuating the homeowner's knew of a foundation problem....they had been shady about a couple other issues though, and when we saw the crack it was added encouragement for getting an engineer out.
The house was built in the early 80's. According to everyone that has been out to look, there has never been any prior issue/repair.

I am not 100% certain, but am pretty sure I am remember that the first engineer was a referral from the realtor. I did not mention this to the new engineer (who was able to guess the previous engineer by name just by us describing his methods). The new engineer stated that this previous engineer got a lot of business from realtor referrals, and said as long as he ok'd the house, the realtors continued sending him referrals. He implied that while not common, this practice does happen with unscrupulous realtors & engineers. I don't know if that's true or not, but certainly would not be surprised.
The first engineer did not give us any measurements. He had none to give, since he only used a level and checked at doorways, windows, etc. I think he put a ball on the floor to see if it rolled. He did not use a zip-level or similar measuring tool. We did not know at the time we were supposed to get any type of report with measurements. Our realtor did not advise us otherwise, either, after the engineer was finished...this also seems shady to me.

As for the info we've found out about the foundation now, we hired a stand-alone structural engineer, who did "real" measurements (zip-level thing-a-ma-***, etc) and gave us a "real" engineer report. We did not want to even contact a foundation company until we had an engineer come out. However, the foundation people that have been out have told us the same thing as the new engineer, and that's without knowing exactly what he said till after they did their initial inspection.
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Old 02-03-2010, 10:13 PM
 
12 posts, read 25,533 times
Reputation: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by loves2read View Post
that is scary--
I wonder if your real estate agent recommended the engineer or if he is the one you used when you turned down the first home

we had only a home inspector -- not an engineer to come out--someone our real estate person recommended...frankly I would have felt better using an engineer but my husband thought that was overkill...
The previous home we passed on had the foundation issue disclosed - we didn't have to do any investigating to find out about it.
I would never think $400-500 was overkill when it comes to making a 6 figure investment on a home. I'd much rather lose the $500 and not purchase the house than be stuck with the house and a majorly expensive repair later down the road. You need to over-rule your hubby next time ;-)
Personally, I will always have a structural engineer on top of the home inspection when buying a home. (though I won't be taking any more realtor referrals!) I'd much rather be overly cautious. But I know some people will not even pay for the plain home inspection. I have to wonder though, if an engineer cannot be held accountable for his shoddy job, just how much can you rely on them? Hopefully, I just got one bad apple in a large bunch of typically good ones, and am not intending to bad-mouth structural engineers in general
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Old 02-04-2010, 08:36 AM
 
Location: DFW
40,951 posts, read 49,189,517 times
Reputation: 55008
Don't get me wrong Foundation Engineers are worth their weight for a good inspection. It's justthat 95% of the homes don't show signs or have foundation issues. In those cases it is over kill unless the inspector recommend one or sees issues.

All good agents only want the best inspectors and the client to buy the best house possible. You may have gotten stuck with some lemmons but that's where it helps to get referrals and choose the right inspector.
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Old 02-04-2010, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Austin
7,244 posts, read 21,811,238 times
Reputation: 10015
How could there be only one exterior crack if there is a 5 inch difference? How could you not notice a 5 inch difference in the floor as the years went by? That's huge! Yes, slabs are poured uneven all the time, it's very common, but not 5 inches!!
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Old 02-04-2010, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX
3,072 posts, read 8,415,478 times
Reputation: 5720
Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconheadWest View Post
How could there be only one exterior crack if there is a 5 inch difference? How could you not notice a 5 inch difference in the floor as the years went by? That's huge! Yes, slabs are poured uneven all the time, it's very common, but not 5 inches!!
A structure can experience a uniform settling across an entire plane causing a level difference and yet not one crack or sign of movement inside or out. I inspected a home here where the entire front of the home (slab foundation) appeared to have settled causing it to literally tilt forward. It was not as dramatic as 5" but was noticeable just walking in the home. There was not one sign of damage found, or appearance of repairs to significant damage found. Yes, the signs could have been repaired so skillfully you would never see them. If they did on that home I looked at I would certainly like to know who as I would be referring them out like crazy!!

In the OP's case they have not described any further visible damage from the date of the original purchase, other than possibly additional settlement from original to 5". From what the OP is describing it might well be uniform settlement of the home that has become even more pronounced over the last 8 years. That is a very real possibility as is they did not notice the very gradual settlement progression over 8 years. You and I would have noticed such a large amount as 5" but possibly not the OP? Could other conditions such as useage, etc., have been such they rarely used the affected areas? To many things unanswered to tell!
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