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Old 07-19-2007, 06:56 AM
 
2,231 posts, read 5,321,863 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panks View Post
I am originally from the middle east and I take great exception to your post.

Let me tell you what racism actually is.

RACISM is when you are not even allowed into the country to begin with like the Jews not being ALLOWED to enter saudi arabia...thats RACISM.

RACISM is not being allowed to worship as a Christian in muslim countries and being whipped or stoned to death if you are discovered.

RACISM is when your property is taken away from you because you are not a muslim.

RACISM is when you are convicted of a crime and sentenced to die, without the benefit of a lawyer because you are a Christian Philipino maid in Saudi Arabia.

Instead of being worried about racism in the U.S, you should be thankful that you are being allowed in to LIVE and WORK and make MONEY here,DESPITE the attacks on the US on 9-11. Isn't that why you are coming here instead of staying in the middle east in the first place?
Hostility in America toward the ethnic culture that generated the 9/11 massacres is something that can be reasonably expected. Anger may or may not be a rational condition, but it is a human one.

Also, the level of hostility in the Middle East toward America means that America is in danger from many of its people. Should America show hospitality and courtesy to someone who may be a possible threat? Personally, I think America should, but I can understand the opposite reaction.

When the Empire of Japan bombed Hawaii in 1941, many Americans were outraged at Japanese people, not because they hated Asians in general, but because Japanese people had injured and killed their countrymen. On the other hand, I don't know that hundreds of thousands of ethnic Arabs in the USA are being forced to move to relocation camps in Arizona because Osama Bin Laden and his cohorts were Arabs.

Foreigners do not have a legal right to enter the United States at will, or remain in the USA as they choose. Entry is a privilege, not a right. That's why the USA can either grant or deny visas at its discretion. And every other country in the world has the same policy. Are the guardians of this policy enforcing it in an arbitrary and unpredictable way? Maybe... in fact, I hope so. Why? If they became predictable, our enemies would soon take advantage of the rules to circumvent them, and put bombs in OUR airports and subways.

But why don't we have Arabs rioting and burning cars, as in France, or North Africans bombing trains, as in Spain, or Pakistanis planting bombs in subways and airports, as in the UK? It's because Europe is a racist society that separates Middle Easterners and Muslims from its own people, whereas America is far less xenophobic and more accepting of those who are different. Middle Eastern people who come here can genuinely become Americans, share in the American identity, but in Europe they will always be outside, looking in.

Last edited by aceplace; 07-19-2007 at 07:10 AM..
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Old 07-19-2007, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Irvine
257 posts, read 847,057 times
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Oh boy, it had to happen eventually.... the arrogant and preachers have hijacked the thread.

Aceplace - If you think there is no racism in this country, go speak to some african americans why don't you. I won't even suggest you should speak to an arab or Muslim, because of your obvious holier than though attitude of how privileged they should feel to show up on your doorstep. My husband is a citizen of this country, should he be kissing your feet too?

Really now, that whole diatribe on visa policies? As if we all aren't aware of how the visa system works in this country?

In case you haven't noticed while watching CNN and Fox, this country is at war with or threatening war with most of the Middle East, so why wouldn't this middle eastern gentlemen (original poster) be concerned? It is only HUMAN.

Aceplace, if you want evidence of the kind of person the original poster needs to look out for in our beloved country, you need look no further than Mr. or Mrs. Panks on page 4 of this thread. He or she would claim to be so much superior, and then use the examples listed in his/her post to treat someone with a lack of dignity and respect, as if that one person carries the weight of anything bad that happens in the world involving a muslim or arab.

This thread was about INDIVIDUALS. Individuals having problems at an airport, individuals being concerned about ill-treatment based on his ethnicity, individuals being insulted on a bus. This wasn't about politics and world history. You can go to any country in any corner of the world, and there will be some history and conflict to conjure up and use as an excuse to abuse others, but that doesn't make it right - here or anywhere else.

What if Panks or Aceplace was ordered by their company to head to Japan tomorrow for work on a project. We have a political history with Japan - we bombed them, remember? So should Panks or Aceplace be subjected to harassment when they arrive at the airport - herded off the plane with all the other white people (if they are white) and interrogated for hours? Should they be shouted at on a bus because of where they are from? The answer is no - because they as individuals are not responsible for the acts of their government or other citizens of their country.

With your logic, I guess we should just banish Michigan from this country - the home of Timothy McVeigh. All those people from Michigan must be exactly like him and hate the government and want to destroy it, right?

I get disgusted whenever I come across attitudes like this, so I won't be revisiting this thread.

My best regards to everyone.
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Old 07-19-2007, 04:41 PM
 
2,231 posts, read 5,321,863 times
Reputation: 535
Predjudice toward Japanese?

No, masala, for many years I was a member of a Japanese religious group called Soka Gakkai... I remember fondly chanting in a beautiful Buddhist temple complex at the foot of Mount Fuji... My wish to the Dai Gohonzon was to convince a certain woman to be my wife. And I succeeded.

Antagonism toward Arabs? No, not me... I am a voice of toleration and reasonability in seeing beyond ethnic stereotypes and evaluating people as individuals. When you get to know people, their participation in a geopolitical movement becomes less important and their identity as individuals is more prominent.

Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world. The anti-European and anti-American racism of the middle east is a factor. President Jimmy Carter did not sack the Iranian embassy in Washington and humiliate diplomats... it was the other way around. If any one society is going to suffer in conflict with another, I hope it will not be mine.

Last edited by aceplace; 07-19-2007 at 04:51 PM..
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Old 07-19-2007, 05:14 PM
 
2,231 posts, read 5,321,863 times
Reputation: 535
If the USA wants to prevail in its struggle for survival, it needs to incorporate its population of Middle Eastern origin into its world view. Just as it incorporated the Japanese American Nisei into its struggle in the Second World War.

No, I am not a Muslim, but I have a copy of the Koran in a respected place in my house. And I respect it because it is a holy book. Perhaps it is the Word of God, but I'm not making that commitment. So I am not a Muslim.

On the other hand...

Do we, as a society, wish to cede the traditions of much of the world to Osama Bin Laden? Well, do we want to cede Christianity to the Ku Klux Klan?

Let's say that Americans of Arab ethnicity volunteer to subject themselves to extra scrutiny at airports because of their ethnic origins? Is that OK? It would be with me. Just as long as the authorities recognize that real danger comes from many ethnicities... remember Richard Reid, the shoe bomber.
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Old 07-19-2007, 06:29 PM
 
1,005 posts, read 3,308,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceplace View Post
Middle Eastern people who come here can genuinely become Americans, share in the American identity, but in Europe they will always be outside, looking in.
Oh please. I've lived in Austria for 27 years and know Germany pretty well. While Austria isn't as diverse as the US, the Muslims that want to integrate, can. There are a LOT of immigrants from Turkey in both Austria and Germany and my school friends from Turkey were absolutely integrated. Sure, there are integration problems, but it is mostly the choice of the involved people, and not a legal hurdle.

As a matter of fact, because of WWII and the racism running rampant back then, at least my native country has a LOT less racism now than the USA - from personal experience. Sure, you hear about neo-nazi groups and right wing politicians over there but IMO this is because reports about those are highly visible and exaggerated due to history. And even the most right wing European politician, in the grand scheme of things, would be center in the US. Imagine a European politician calling for a thousands miles long border wall. (S)he would be cruzified in the court of public opinion as the second coming of Hitler.
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Old 07-19-2007, 07:24 PM
 
2,231 posts, read 5,321,863 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galore View Post
Oh please. I've lived in Austria for 27 years and know Germany pretty well. While Austria isn't as diverse as the US, the Muslims that want to integrate, can. There are a LOT of immigrants from Turkey in both Austria and Germany and my school friends from Turkey were absolutely integrated. Sure, there are integration problems, but it is mostly the choice of the involved people, and not a legal hurdle.
Sorry, I don't accept your claims for the integration of Turk people into Austria. You say that those who want to integrate can. That is an excuse you use to justify the majority of unassimilated foreigners due to European xenophobia.

Quote:
As a matter of fact, because of WWII and the racism running rampant back then, at least my native country has a LOT less racism now than the USA - from personal experience.
How much of an equivalent to an African-American population does your country have. What is your basis of civil rights legislation? What are your equivalents to America's 14th, 15th and 16th constitutional amendments? Who is your Martin Luther King for Gypsies (Roma)? How many Lutherans and Calvinists did you kill in the 17th century? Do you have a constitution that guarantees separation of church and state? Why did your country invade Serbia and instigate the First World War? Do you take the trouble to write all documents into multiple languages, as we do English and Spanish? Do you have civil rights legislation guaranteeing things into law? NO? I think not.

Now that I think about it, how many Jews did your country kill? Do you know how many Jews America killed in concentration camps? Zero. Do you know how many Japanese-Americans America sent from its WWII camps to universities? Thousands?

Quote:
Sure, you hear about neo-nazi groups and right wing politicians over there but IMO this is because reports about those are highly visible and exaggerated due to history. And even the most right wing European politician, in the grand scheme of things, would be center in the US. Imagine a European politician calling for a thousands miles long border wall. (S)he would be cruzified in the court of public opinion as the second coming of Hitler.
Every country in the world, including every one in Europe, claims to be able to patrol its borders to restrict the entry of people. Your country is no exception. If the USA acts to patrol its borders to restrict intruders, or erect a barrier to restrict intruders from entry, why is that bad? Does Austria's government have a right to decide who enters its country? Well, so does the United States.

In general, European governments are much to the political left of much of the United States. Europe's left-right orientation is its own business. If Europeans become hoity-toity about pressing its failed and declining civilization on the United States, why should the USA care? In fact, if Western Europe begins to interfere in the internal affairs of the United States, a far richer and stronger country, what should the United States legitimately do to Europe?

About the best thing that happened to your country after 1945 was the De-Nazification campaign that eliminated so many of your citizens from the public forum. Fortunalely, our efforts in Austria were more effective that that in Baghdad.

Last edited by aceplace; 07-19-2007 at 08:07 PM..
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Old 07-19-2007, 07:55 PM
 
2,231 posts, read 5,321,863 times
Reputation: 535
Quote:
Imagine a European politician calling for a thousands miles long border wall. (S)he would be cruzified in the court of public opinion as the second coming of Hitler
Perhaps the Austrian educational system is so much in denial about its complicity in the Nazi regeime that it forgot what Hitler actually did?
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Old 07-19-2007, 09:02 PM
 
1,005 posts, read 3,308,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceplace View Post
Perhaps the Austrian educational system is so much in denial about its complicity in the Nazi regeime that it forgot what Hitler actually did?
You have no idea, obviously.
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Old 07-19-2007, 09:06 PM
 
1,005 posts, read 3,308,131 times
Reputation: 634
Quote:
Originally Posted by aceplace View Post
Sorry, I don't accept your claims for the integration of Turk people into Austria. You say that those who want to integrate can. That is an excuse you use to justify the majority of unassimilated foreigners due to European xenophobia.

How much of an equivalent to an African-American population does your country have. What is your basis of civil rights legislation? What are your equivalents to America's 14th, 15th and 16th constitutional amendments? Who is your Martin Luther King for Gypsies (Roma)? How many Lutherans and Calvinists did you kill in the 17th century? Do you have a constitution that guarantees separation of church and state? Why did your country invade Serbia and instigate the First World War? Do you take the trouble to write all documents into multiple languages, as we do English and Spanish? Do you have civil rights legislation guaranteeing things into law? NO? I think not.

Now that I think about it, how many Jews did your country kill? Do you know how many Jews America killed in concentration camps? Zero. Do you know how many Japanese-Americans America sent from its WWII camps to universities? Thousands?

Every country in the world, including every one in Europe, claims to be able to patrol its borders to restrict the entry of people. Your country is no exception. If the USA acts to patrol its borders to restrict intruders, or erect a barrier to restrict intruders from entry, why is that bad? Does Austria's government have a right to decide who enters its country? Well, so does the United States.

In general, European governments are much to the political left of much of the United States. Europe's left-right orientation is its own business. If Europeans become hoity-toity about pressing its failed and declining civilization on the United States, why should the USA care? In fact, if Western Europe begins to interfere in the internal affairs of the United States, a far richer and stronger country, what should the United States legitimately do to Europe?

About the best thing that happened to your country after 1945 was the De-Nazification campaign that eliminated so many of your citizens from the public forum. Fortunalely, our efforts in Austria were more effective that that in Baghdad.
Lots of blabla.

You know, I've lived there for 27 years and for almost 10 years in the US. I gave you my personal perspective based on my experience.
You are probably talking based on what you think is informed opinion but instead is probably theory that you learned from some more or less biased sources.
I say probably because I don't know, if you actually lived in a European country or if you just think you know how things are based on a classroom or the internet.
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Old 07-19-2007, 09:16 PM
 
2,231 posts, read 5,321,863 times
Reputation: 535
Quote:
Originally Posted by galore View Post
You have no idea, obviously.
Yes, I have some knowledge of the history of the Third Reich, and of the history of Europe in the 20th century.

I don't recall a policy in the 1930's or 1940's Germany to erect a wall to prevent immigration into their country.
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