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Old 04-11-2012, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,805 posts, read 12,881,143 times
Reputation: 5499

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpathianPeasant View Post
I sincerely believe there are many, many, MANY people who are identified as or claim to be gay (etc.) who are not so. There are practical realities in life that cause the identity, often rooted in gossip. Example:

Two people (man and woman) age 20 marry. Five years and two babies later they go to a class re-union of sorts where 30 people show up 24 of whom are married. Two of the same sex who were friends in school mention they took an apartment together as they both figured it was time to get out of the family nest. Right there the eyebrows will go up. And, that's a mild case.

The first reality of life is that it is neither cheap nor easy nor particularly safe to live alone. If there's no one around that someone would like to marry, the alternatives are living with a family member (which also causes talk) or friend(s) of the same sex or limiting oneself to something like a high rise full of small and expensive apartments.

The second reality of life is that while there's nothing wrong with being a single individual, people do like to do things in the company of others, some more so than others. No one knows all there is to know or sees all there is to see -- it takes two (sometimes three) people to get a better grasp of things. And just have two men (men more so than women) together in a restaurant in the evening and again there will be raised eyebrows.

Of course, there are things much deeper than that. And, I'm not saying there is no such thing.
Um... what?
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Old 04-11-2012, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,805 posts, read 12,881,143 times
Reputation: 5499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathagos View Post
Oh no, the "name-caller" is coming!!

What an ignorant way to deal with any post one doesn't reply with. Fortunately, I'm out of the 6th grade and name-calling doesn't bother me.

I certainly hope you don't epitomize the standard of intelligence in Dayton, sir/ma'am, for that would be another deciding factor. As I already claimed in an earlier post (one that you decided not to contribute in, maybe because no name-calling was called for), I also see that there is an extremely high crime rate in Dayton. There were other, mature, posters who were able to allay those fears.

Unfortunately, lifestyles are a choice that we are not forced to live with. As noted by the OP in his/her response to me, there is some form of at least a gay/lesbian factor in every city. It doesn't mean I have to approve or support it. It also means they don't have to give a rat's behind what my opinion is on the matter. I also don't approve of biker communities. I don't approve of many things that may or may not become a deciding factor of where I choose to settle and make my living.

There are many that do not like the traditional values of raising a family in a traditional role with traditional responsibilities. But, since that's my priority, anything that may not support that becomes a factor in my decision as well.

The unfortunate thing is that through the sophomoric response you gave (quoted above), if you even half-supported people who prefer traditional values as those who support others, you'd probably be able to build up a pretty nice community as a whole. But, since anyone who disagrees with you is displaying "City Data predjudice", I often wonder who the truly ignorant really is.

Only a fervant person looking for predjudice could turn a conversation about a developing community and one's will to participate or not in it into an "us versus them" argument. What a sad life to live.
Just because you are polite in your personal prejudices in no way means that people should be grateful that you shared them. This is 2012 and if you seriously have a problem with gays and all of the evidence that contradicts your beliefs about them (such as gay=lifestyle choice), then there really isn't any reason people should be tolerant of you.
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Old 04-11-2012, 08:09 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,805 posts, read 12,881,143 times
Reputation: 5499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathagos View Post
Too bad they are so predjudiced they don't include support for those who support traditional values as well, huh?
If "traditional values" equates to holding extremely outdated and ignorant views about a minority group, then I can't imagine why the Midwest would want to share those views.
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:58 AM
 
Location: A voice of truth, shouted down by fools.
1,086 posts, read 2,235,023 times
Reputation: 894
One thing Rathagos may be legitimately concerned about is "militant diversity".

I do understand that one may legitimately not wish to be lectured about the "need" to embrace all lifestyles or to have public displays of affection shoved down their throat.

Dayton is probably one of the places in the country where it is least likely that "militant diversity" and the thought police aspect of liberalism will be discernible. Someone with a fringe lifestyle in a city like Dayton is generally quite happy to be left alone, to have their own friends, and to not be harassed.

Tolerance does not imply approval. A civil society should make that distinction. And someone who can't reason civilly or understand that their tolerance does not imply approval probably shouldn't even think of locating near any city.

Last edited by Ohioan58; 04-12-2012 at 01:06 AM..
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:24 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,805 posts, read 12,881,143 times
Reputation: 5499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohioan58 View Post
One thing Rathagos may be legitimately concerned about is "militant diversity".

I do understand that one may legitimately not wish to be lectured about the "need" to embrace all lifestyles or to have public displays of affection shoved down their throat.

Dayton is probably one of the places in the country where it is least likely that "militant diversity" and the thought police aspect of liberalism will be discernible. Someone with a fringe lifestyle in a city like Dayton is generally quite happy to be left alone, to have their own friends, and to not be harassed.

Tolerance does not imply approval. A civil society should make that distinction. And someone who can't reason civilly or understand that their tolerance does not imply approval probably shouldn't even think of locating near any city.
Being in Mexico, I see many many cultural differences between here and in the US, and one of them is how people interact socially, especially when they are involved romantically. In the US, PDA's are typically frowned upon, and I myself have never particularly cared for really garish displays. The longer I'm here, however, the more I think my feelings towards it are entirely cultural and less about my personal views.

Latin culture is very open when it comes to romance. People are making out on the street everywhere, gay and straight alike. Since gay marriage and all related rights are given in Mexico City, gays are as open as any other couple. No one seems to care, and even if they do, they make no reaction. This is definitely something Americans can learn from.
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:57 AM
 
Location: Covington, KY
1,881 posts, read 2,141,860 times
Reputation: 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Um... what?
Psychological considerations, which is neither genetics nor mental health. (That's one.)

And, yes, I skipped "shacked up" arrangements in the list of alternatives. Ordinary legal and moral matters aside, a clever individual just might argue some of that into a marriage based on common law. ...Except, of course, in Louisiana where law is not based on English common law.
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:03 AM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
4,245 posts, read 5,796,292 times
Reputation: 2959
History is a bit off:


Quote:
In 1892 The Stage Door, a once called "musical" bar that later became an openly gay bar opened above the Victoria Theater. It moved in 1940 to its current location on Jefferson St.
The ancestor of the Stage Door was the Latin Lounge, located on 2nd btw Main and Ludlow (south side of 2nd), about where the Boston Stoker is...a bit to the east of the Boston Stoker). It was gay.friendly from its inception in the 1930s (after Prohibition), and remained at that location until urban renewal tore down the Courthouse Square block.

It relocated to Jefferson Street in the early 1970s. The name change from Latin Lounge to Stage Door came at the original location on 2nd or shortly after the move to Jefferson. The former occupant of the Jefferson Street site was Tuffy Brooks Sporting Goods (still in buisness on Keowee).

The Stage Door expanded in the late 1970s or early/mid 1980s into an adjacent storefront, to the current size it is today.

The bar on the second floor of the Victory Theatre (todays Victoria) was the Tai Tae. This establishment was in business for only a few years, from late 1960s to the early 1970s. Closed by 1972 or 1973. It was in business in 1969 at the time of the Stonewall Riots as some veterans of Stonewall passed through town and stopped there and the patrons bought them rounds in honor...

The reason for the odd name was the Tai Tae was originally a Korean Karate or martial arts studio, and the name was kept when the place was turned into a bar. Probably as a disguise.

Looking at the old pix of the Victoria at the time you can tell were the bar was via the porthole windows on the 2nd floro.

Quote:
In 1978 The Right Corner opened on the corner of Jefferson and 3rd.
Right Corner opened in the early/mid 1990s at its current location. It was originally called Changes and was located in a storefront on 5th, direclty across the street from the Spaghetti Warehouse. Portions of the old Changes bar (the telephone booth, the medallion on the wall, the popcorn machine, and the bar and backbar themselves) where incorporated into the Wright Corner.

Changes was the first gay bar I ever went to in Dayton, shortly after I moved here from northern California.

I'm not clear on how long Changes was in business. I think since the late 1970s or early 1980s. It was originally the site of live music venue during the 1970s. and hosted the Muscians Co-Op open mike night that is currently at Canal Street Tavern

So, hope you enjoy this little history of two local insitutitons in the gay bar scene. The Stage Door is indeed the oldest "gay bar" in Ohio (or the oldest liquor liscense associated with a gay clientele, since the 1930s).

Quote:
Dayton is probably one of the places in the country where it is least likely that "militant diversity" and the thought police aspect of liberalism will be discernible
Agree with this. The Dayton Region doesnt really accept or welcome gays or lesbians. It tolerates them in a sort of dont ask/dont tell way, or in a sort of token "we are a creative place so we have to pay lip-service to diversity" kind of way

So if people are moving to the area and are concerned about this, about a highy visible and activist community, and are not cool with gay people or prefer they mind their own business and keep it on the DL they are pretty much in snyc with local attitudes, becuase most gay folk here are in the closet and like it that way, and the straights like it that way too.

"Visibility" as in things like a public Pride celebration is only about 12 years old here, since the early 2000s, I think. Not well-attended, either, since most of the local LGBTs "know their place", which is not marching down the street in the middle of the day. Though its sort of OK to do this downtown since no one comes downtown on Saturdays anyway.

Things are changing on this front, though. An example is the Sinclair Community College l-g group Brite Signal, who has involvement from three local str8 establishments/venues, Trolly Stop and Press coffeeshop and Garden Station urban garden/park, hosting things in conjunction with their reading/discussion of the Laramie Project. This is probably one of the firsts for Dayton, having non-gay businesses and venues doing stuff as part of a lesbian/gay event or activist thing. The local gay chorus performing at Victory Theatre and becoming more involved with the local arts community is also a sign of growing integration into the larger community.

So this area is moving beyond the tolerance/keep it on the DL attitude, though we are no weres near as open/accepting as Columbus or some of the Upper Midwest cities.
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:17 AM
 
Location: West Texas
2,441 posts, read 5,272,802 times
Reputation: 3100
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
I'm sure the folks in Dayton, gay or straight, would prefer not to have people move there who live like it's still 1955 and long for the days when minorities were relegated to their own fountains and their own secret bars.

BTW, there are plenty of gays in Texas. Just because you're not aware of it doesn't mean anything. When you're looking for the stereotype, there are 10 others who don't fit who you encounter each and every day. Enjoy!
Please don't lecture me like you're some sort of world-traveling intellectual... especially because you know absolutely nothing about me.

And, you falsely assume that my traditional values encompass racism. There's a difference between me believing in a lifestyle choice and a proven biological prejudice. This thread was about the desire or interest in seeing an area of a city that is apparently currently run-down be brought back up to a decent set of standards - particularly if that action was undertaken by gays. (Please correct me if I'm wrong Nickolaseposter.).

My comment was that since I don't particularly endorse a homosexual lifestyle, that this (Dayton) may not be the place for me if a large population was going to be moving into a large portion of the city. No degradation said or intended (regardless of how hard you try bully me into a corner with name-calling).

If we change the word "homosexuals" with "murderers" (or nose-pickers, or nudists, or whatever) would the context not be the same? I'm sure most people don't approve of the lifestyle of a person who accepts murder as acceptable (albeit we all understand that it's illegal and homosexuality isn't - so you don't have to try to insult my intelligence again). So, if people disagree with a certain set of behaviors, they have a choice.

Trying to muddy the issue itself with name-calling, baiting, and the race-card just show that you are a "sign of the times" individual who would probably jump off the proverbial bridge if their friends did. I don't accept things just because people tell me to. I'm also intelligent enough to know the difference between scientifically proven genetic issues versus non-scientifically proven ones. But again (I'm trying to reiterate this again so you understand I'm trying to stay on topic), this had to do with me saying whether or not I would choose to support something like that. I think I did so.

And, for answering the question posed, I get a response like the one above. If you want to discuss the issue, please let me know. If you want to just throw out names to call each other, please look elsewhere. An input was asked for and given. More than I can say for the drivel and diatribe you provided.
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,805 posts, read 12,881,143 times
Reputation: 5499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathagos View Post
Please don't lecture me like you're some sort of world-traveling intellectual... especially because you know absolutely nothing about me.

One doesn't have to be a world-travelling intellectual to know this game.

And, you falsely assume that my traditional values encompass racism. There's a difference between me believing in a lifestyle choice and a proven biological prejudice. This thread was about the desire or interest in seeing an area of a city that is apparently currently run-down be brought back up to a decent set of standards - particularly if that action was undertaken by gays. (Please correct me if I'm wrong Nickolaseposter.).

It's easy to make that assumption, however, when you falsely assume that being gay is a "lifestyle choice", which is about as ignorant of science and common sense and decency as racism is. It's not exactly unique to find someone with both prejudice against gays AND racial minorities. You act as if it's a huge leap, when in reality they're very commonly linked together.

And if the thread was about that, which I agree it was, why did you feel it necessary to state that you would not move to Dayton because you feel like you'll get cooties from gay people?

My comment was that since I don't particularly endorse a homosexual lifestyle, that this (Dayton) may not be the place for me if a large population was going to be moving into a large portion of the city. No degradation said or intended (regardless of how hard you try bully me into a corner with name-calling).

It's logically impossible to state that you won't move to a place because people *gasp* might accept homosexuality, and then state that that opinion had nothing to do with degradation of gay people. You can't separate the obviously very negative view of gay people with the "no harm intended" mindset. You realize that, right?

If we change the word "homosexuals" with "murderers" (or nose-pickers, or nudists, or whatever) would the context not be the same? I'm sure most people don't approve of the lifestyle of a person who accepts murder as acceptable (albeit we all understand that it's illegal and homosexuality isn't - so you don't have to try to insult my intelligence again). So, if people disagree with a certain set of behaviors, they have a choice.

Pretty sure context is important, and no they're not all the same. Gays are not murderers, nose-pickers, nudists, or whatever other negative thing you can think up. The fact that you only came up with negative examples just supports that your opinion on the matter is not the innocent "who me?" you're giving me now.

It really doesn't matter who or who doesn't support it. You have the ability as an individual to be better than the group because you can choose to educate yourself and change your position. Don't use group-think as an excuse for what *you* have chosen to believe, contrary to the facts. And further and again, it's not a "lifestyle choice" and someone being gay is not defined that way by their physical actions. Sexuality is about uncontrollable attraction and emotional connection, not who you have sex with. Sex is a symptom of the cause, not the other way around.

Trying to muddy the issue itself with name-calling, baiting, and the race-card just show that you are a "sign of the times" individual who would probably jump off the proverbial bridge if their friends did. I don't accept things just because people tell me to. I'm also intelligent enough to know the difference between scientifically proven genetic issues versus non-scientifically proven ones. But again (I'm trying to reiterate this again so you understand I'm trying to stay on topic), this had to do with me saying whether or not I would choose to support something like that. I think I did so.

Yes, because clearly someone couldn't be living in the 21st Century and hold views that people deserve to be treated equally and without having this type of ignorance pushed about without being under the influence of peer pressure. Come on, even you can't believe that.

Science has not identified the origins of any sexual orientation, including heterosexuality, something people like yourself like to gloss over in order to claim homosexuality is a convenient choice. Something they pretty much universally agree upon, however, is that it is established either before birth or very shortly after, and that it likely a combination of genetic, in-vitro and early environmental factors. The bottom line is that it is immutable and most definitely not a choice.

And, for answering the question posed, I get a response like the one above. If you want to discuss the issue, please let me know. If you want to just throw out names to call each other, please look elsewhere. An input was asked for and given. More than I can say for the drivel and diatribe you provided.
Let's be honest here, you used the OP as a jumping point to state your personal bias against gays and you got called out for it. Now pretending like you're some innocent victim being unfairly maligned is also not going to fly. Grow up and at least accept responsibility for the unfortunate views you hold.
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:47 PM
 
Location: West Texas
2,441 posts, read 5,272,802 times
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Really?!? That's all you got from my post? You poor, poor, man. I pretend nothing, and have stated my position with no hidden difference in any post. I'm sorry you have such a chip on your shoulder and crusade in your heart that it's impossible to talk to you rationally.

I could say I went to the zoo today, and you'd find a way for me to be prejudiced against the monkeys or something.

So, I guess someone says "We (demographic here) want to rebuild (whatever needs rebuilding here). What do you think?" And everyone has to say it's a great idea, huh? Because that's what you're saying. Because I disagree with it for my reasons, you don't like that. And, therefore, I'm not allowed to express myself according the 1st Amendment unless I agree with you and your values, huh?

Okay... everyone hear that?!!? You HAVE to say you like the idea, period, or your a (place derogatory term or name here)!!!!

If that's not what you're saying, I'd sure like to hear what it is. All this rhetoric your spewing is because I didn't positively jump the premise of the original post. Or, please, feel free to enlighten me some more.

Last edited by Rathagos; 04-12-2012 at 12:55 PM..
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