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Old 06-01-2012, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Covington, KY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomJones123 View Post

I cannot disagree with one single point. I have to say that these qualities were a contributing factor in my families move to Cincinnati. We are in a neighborhood now where we are very welcome and have a network of friends who are very supportive.
Cincinnati is an entirely different animal. In a few words, Cincinnati is the house; Dayton is the garage out back. And, Northern Kentucky is the front porch.
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpathianPeasant View Post
Cincinnati is an entirely different animal. In a few words, Cincinnati is the house; Dayton is the garage out back. And, Northern Kentucky is the front porch.
True words, my friend. Not being from Ohio and at one time not knowing anything about Cincinnati, I assumed that Cincinnati was a larger version of Dayton. That is until I started coming to Cincy. I have been pleasantly surprised by what Cincy has to offer.
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomJones123 View Post
I quoted myself so I am not taken out of context.

standoffish, cliquish = If you are not from around here many people may not welcome you. Some of the ones that do welcome you may not when around those who do not. This what my wife and I experienced over the course of 2 years living in east Dayton. Beyond that, my statement is based on experiences and require no further explanation.

down right uneducated = many of the people I met in east Dayton couldn't form a complete sentence w/o littering it with f. bombs. I will not waste my time with further explanation. If you don't know inner city Dayton then you probably would not get what I am saying.

And by the way, I have lived all over the country and have never had such a hard time being accepted into a community as I did in Dayton.

Not to say that there aren't a lot of good folks around. = There are a lot of good people around. A lot of the folks I got to know in Dayton were good hearted, kind, hard working, and successful. They tend to be the minority when talking of Dayton proper. The Dayton region fares a lot better than it's anchor city.
Fair enough. I haven't been to and experienced inner-city west Dayton, but I've heard the same things you say about similarly old-school white working-class areas. Actually, I'm from Kansas City, KS, which probably holds many similarities to Dayton. I do understand what you're saying now that I think of it and you've explained.

The only other thought I have is to ask you if you'd go as far as calling east Dayton a "white ghetto" or if it's just old school working-class, like something circa 1970 stuck behind the times. Are they any better off than the west side of Dayton?

I understand the seemingly odd social ways of the hardcore working-class (where it still remains) and I understand that some folks aren't at all sophisticated, but then I wonder when it comes down to it how much the "educated" factor is sort of an assumption. IE: we could be assuming that folks who appear more conventially "middle class" are more educated than we think. But I know those who are socially how you describe aren't fit to work in anything above a warehouse or plant. I don't see them changing within their lifetime, so I still think everything possible should be done to provide them jobs that fit their needs. I guess I'm trying to be like truly "liberal" if there is such a thing and not be so snotty toward people. At the same time, I think I fail to realize just how well I and others I know have it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohioan58 View Post
Good points.

You're going beyond the point of the NY Times article, though. Look at it more literally, as it was intended: a town like Dayton is at a competitive and strategic disadvantage because it has a lower than average count of college graduates.

College grads are builders, engineers, doctors, inventors, architects. They are the backbone of the formation of businesses.

The lack of graduates is two things to Dayton:

1) a canary in the coal mine indicating a substandard local economy and range of economic opportunities. (And in my strong opinion, it indicates a substandard quality of life in one respect: socially.)

2) it is a lack of a specific raw material needed to build a better region.
I think you're right. I did take the issues beyond the article. I agree that Dayton is at a competitive disadvantage, but I also think it's about how you look at it. I still think everything possible should be done to flood places like this though with blue-collar jobs. If you prop up the working-class, I think that will translate into a calling for very specific white-collar jobs, some of which you mentioned, as the need warrants. I just don't see how cities like Dayton are otherwise going to attract major white-collar employers for the sake of them being in Dayton (or Wichita, etc.). Those making the decisions and college grads both don't want to be in more humble places. They don't seem to want to bring up down-and-out communities. They want glam, to "play city", and to segregate to themselves. There's always been a working/middle-class divide and segregation, even in the smallest of towns, but I think today with such a large, mainstream college-educated/white-collar set it's on a whole new level and creating a problem with segregation that is tied in with the problem the article illustrates that Dayton has. I just don't see a solution outside doing what can be done to prop up the working-class. If you think about it, politicians, the media, etc. totally ignore the working-class. They don't discuss the group specifially or any of its needs. The generic term "middle class" is overused to describe two distinct groups with separate needs. The middle-class will take care of itself. The working-class is the true middle ground who needs help. Places like Dayton need help, that's for sure, but I don't see them becoming white-collar meccas when those cities have already been chosen.
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:41 AM
 
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Dayton was/is a blue collar manufacturing town, so there wasn't a need for a lot of folks to have degrees. You graduated from high school and went onto the manufacturing floor (and made a good living without any post HS education).
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe from dayton View Post
Dayton was/is a blue collar manufacturing town, so there wasn't a need for a lot of folks to have degrees. You graduated from high school and went onto the manufacturing floor (and made a good living without any post HS education).
There is nothing wrong with that. The real tragedy is the departure of manufacturing offshore. That likely strangled Dayton more than anything else.
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOKAN View Post
The only other thought I have is to ask you if you'd go as far as calling east Dayton a "white ghetto" or if it's just old school working-class, like something circa 1970 stuck behind the times. Are they any better off than the west side of Dayton?
Unfortunately, parts of East Dayton are hard core ghetto and only getting worse. It's harder to call it white ghetto anymore since the racial east/west divide in Dayton seems to be erased more everyday. But overall, the west side is more black and the east is more white, so I have to ultimately call parts of it white ghetto.

I share many of your views and would love to see opportunities available for everyone, college educated or not. There is a sub-class in Dayton that is proud of their trashy ways, relish how bad things are, and have no desire to do little more than deal/use drugs. While this sub-class is everywhere, they seem to be more concentrated in Dayton. I think the unusually high crime rates testify to this. Again, I am not bashing Dayton and there are many, many, hardworking folks in Dayton proper. Just so my words are not taken out of context.
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomJones123 View Post
Unfortunately, parts of East Dayton are hard core ghetto and only getting worse. It's harder to call it white ghetto anymore since the racial east/west divide in Dayton seems to be erased more everyday. But overall, the west side is more black and the east is more white, so I have to ultimately call parts of it white ghetto.

I share many of your views and would love to see opportunities available for everyone, college educated or not. There is a sub-class in Dayton that is proud of their trashy ways, relish how bad things are, and have no desire to do little more than deal/use drugs. While this sub-class is everywhere, they seem to be more concentrated in Dayton. I think the unusually high crime rates testify to this. Again, I am not bashing Dayton and there are many, many, hardworking folks in Dayton proper. Just so my words are not taken out of context.
I understood the difference between the east and west before asking. Also, from what I can tell east Dayton is becoming more Hispanic. The old white working-class areas of both Kansas City's are similar. They've gone from majority old-school white to majority Hispanic in the past couple of decades. This seems to be a trend.

It's a shame the working-class is in the shape it's in, but I still attribute part of that into neglect. Expecting those people to all go off to college and transition is unrealistic. They need to be specifically acknowledged and catered to now. I think you're onto something with the off-shoring comment, but the details of that are an area where my current knowledge fizzles out. I simply don't understand what policies or macro economics have exacerbated that problem, but I do know the working class hit its peak about 1970, so whatever happened around that time or after. I do know globalization has played a role and that it actually serves us well in some ways, but I think there's a balance somewhere that's not being struck.
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:57 AM
 
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I think TJ is pretty accurate. I live on the east side of Dayton. I live in a decent neighborhood and my neighbors have jobs, mow their lawn and are like anyone else. A short walk away is an area TJ describes. It is a white ghetto in which its inhabitants seem to revel in their own ignorance. They wear their lack of class like a status symbol.
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Old 06-01-2012, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Covington, KY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomJones123 View Post
True words, my friend. Not being from Ohio and at one time not knowing anything about Cincinnati, I assumed that Cincinnati was a larger version of Dayton. That is until I started coming to Cincy. I have been pleasantly surprised by what Cincy has to offer.
You probably overlook some of the circumstances such as: there's, among other things, an important ethnic difference.

Somewhere around the beginning of the 20th century someone did a survey and found something like 3,000 Hungarian immigrants in Dayton. In addition, there is/was also Polish and Lithuanian (two churches full, and I'm putting them together because historically they have been together). And, there's Ukranian/Russian and others.

In short, there were thousands of people with an Eastern European background and probably relatives huddled desperately (?) in the shadow of a super-sensitive United States air force base for the 50 years of the Cold War. All of Montgomery county and at least parts of Greene and Clark counties were off limits to people from Eastern Europe. It was stunning when the Yugoslav peace talks were set for the base. Of course they didn't see anything, but that's beside the point.

There's a masterpiece of achievement there that nothing in Cincinnati matches (including William Howard Taft).

Now, re-think your criticism from that viewpoint.
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Old 06-01-2012, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
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@ Joe, I used to live in Linden Heights, right off of Xenia Ave at Bowen Street. LH is a nice area. Take a walk into Twin Towers and it's like a totally different world. Same with walking over to Historic Inner East. But then you have St. Anne's Hill which is a really cool area.

@MOKAN - As for Hispanics. There have been some hispanic folks moving into East Dayton over the years but it's hardly as you describe in Kansas City.
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