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Old 09-01-2012, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,471 posts, read 6,179,359 times
Reputation: 1303

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
Which would cut city taxes to anyone who lived and worked in downtown.

I'm currently a downtown resident. But after I graduate and begin practicing, what reason under the moon do I have to remain in the city and pay that 2.5% income tax when I can move ten minutes away, into Miami Township or Beavercreek, and pay no city taxes? That adds up to thousands of dollars per year.
And that underscore so much of Dayton's leadership problems. They have lost businesses and residents at a free fall rate. That's decimated Dayton's revenue stream. So what do they do? Do they right size local government? Streamline positions? NOPE! Instead they look for ways to raise the money by cutting services and increasing taxes by disguising the increase as fees. A good example is having citizens pay for street lights.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Covington, KY
1,898 posts, read 2,735,707 times
Reputation: 607
Let me clear up something here for the moment (it certainly won't be "once and for all").

The growth of "suburbia" is not really due to taxes, schools, lifestyles, perceived lack of crime, etc., although those often can be contributing factors. The bottom line is and was mortgage lending, expecially if government backed.

What the little brick facade slab based matchbox houses and the like have and had going for them is/was the fact that with all new materials and equipment there is/was a good chance the place would last the duration of a long term very little money down loan. And, it is still true today.

It takes a certain amount of taxation to run the government, and Oakwood's high tax rate and lack of industry never emptied out Oakwood.

Add to that a considerable amount of (call it) inexperience, so that only after the house is bought is it discovered that public transportation, city water, a well-paid fire department, etc., have their value and you have people that hath bought defending said action with all positive power possible. (Humpf! City tax. We don't pay city tax. We also don't explain we have sky high insurance rates.)
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,471 posts, read 6,179,359 times
Reputation: 1303
Ya, but people can't get mortgages w/o jobs. Dayton was once rich in jobs. Now it's hardly anything left. People have moved on to greener pastures. Dayton was a manufacturing town. Oakwood is white collar. Big difference.
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,827,653 times
Reputation: 2353
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpathianPeasant View Post
It takes a certain amount of taxation to run the government, and Oakwood's high tax rate and lack of industry never emptied out Oakwood.

Add to that a considerable amount of (call it) inexperience, so that only after the house is bought is it discovered that public transportation, city water, a well-paid fire department, etc., have their value and you have people that hath bought defending said action with all positive power possible. (Humpf! City tax. We don't pay city tax. We also don't explain we have sky high insurance rates.)
Hi CarpathianPeasant--

I'll fairly concede (because I don't underestimate) the cost of connecting a new subdivision to city water and the extra associated costs with setting up more services (and arguably increased response times of emergency responders to far-flung neighborhoods that many township governments may be ill-equipped to handle).

But your Oakwood argument falls flat. First, as TomJones123 pointed out, Oakwood was and is largely white-collar and the population is in a better position financially to support those taxes. But Oakwood's population has declined in absolute terms since 1970 - although an optimistic person may say 'stagnated'. Housing development is nil.

(about one-third down): http://www.city-data.com/city/Oakwood-Ohio.html

I would argue that Oakwood's taxes (along with Kettering) prevented them from becoming as viable alternatives to living within Dayton's city limits as say, Beavercreek or any township. All that new development along the edges happens because even the cost of hooking up those subdivisions to city water and paying higher insurance rates are still lower than paying Oakwood's city/property taxes (or any other city with significant taxes) ad infinitum. I won't tire you with the Oakwood levy that failed, because I don't think there's a such thing.

In this vein, I know that the new townhomes that Charlie Simms is building at the edge of downtown have sold fairly quickly. I wonder how many of these first-time residents will move out when their property tax abatements end?
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Covington, KY
1,898 posts, read 2,735,707 times
Reputation: 607
White collar was never limited to Oakwood. And, Oakwood was never limited to white collar.

And, I might add, some of that housing is plenty old.
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati (Norwood)
3,530 posts, read 4,994,294 times
Reputation: 1929
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural510 View Post
Nice to see downtown growth, but in the end health care is not really an economic generator. It provides a lot of middle-class jobs, which is good, but it's redistributed capital, which in itself does not translate to net job growth. The pensions of boomers from their now-defunct manufacturing jobs will carry health care in the region for the next couple decades than most, after that it will be mostly Medicare/Medicaid cases and benefits-light patients who work retail & such and can claim poverty which will be using health care in the region. Of course that could change with the return of manufacturing and other non-tech middle class jobs, but that's doubtful at this point.
Some provocative observations, Natural510. Yes, the medical jobs are important, but, as you stated, they may not prove to be the "magic-bullets" that many cities are hoping they will be (namely Cleveland, Nashville, and Columbus). Don't get me wrong; the economic benefit to these and other cities, which have invested heavily in the medical industry, will be significant and research will undoubtedly lead to creation of additional spin-off jobs. Yet, as you pointed out, this service industry is primarily supported by health care money that will not always be available.
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Old 09-05-2012, 11:29 AM
 
Location: A voice of truth, shouted down by fools.
1,086 posts, read 2,688,997 times
Reputation: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman View Post
Some provocative observations, Natural510. Yes, the medical jobs are important, but, as you stated, they may not prove to be the "magic-bullets" that many cities are hoping they will be (namely Cleveland, Nashville, and Columbus). Don't get me wrong; the economic benefit to these and other cities, which have invested heavily in the medical industry, will be significant and research will undoubtedly lead to creation of additional spin-off jobs. Yet, as you pointed out, this service industry is primarily supported by health care money that will not always be available.
I couldn't agree more with both of these posts. Health care now approaching 18% of GDP in the US, I believe it will have its own day of reckoning, just as the domestic auto industry and domestic manufacturing did. On Urbanohio someone posted a list of Springfield's top companies from 1960 and the same list from 2010. In 1960 not one hospital was in the top 10. In 2010 several health networks were in the top 10.

This situation of essentially parasitic industries being wildly successful while actual economic production stagnates can't last. The lower middle class youth who enter medical technician and EMT training as an alternative to military service as a career track may be disappointed in the future.
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,827,653 times
Reputation: 2353
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpathianPeasant View Post
White collar was never limited to Oakwood. And, Oakwood was never limited to white collar.

And, I might add, some of that housing is plenty old.
Hi CarpathianPeasant--

While I wouldn't call Oakwood exclusively white-collar, it's damned near close to it. Because a white-collar salary is about all that will permit you to live there without being taxed completely out. There's a few graduate students I know that live there, but that's largely to be close to campus (and escape the truly asinine campus-owned apartments - they are something like $5,000 per semester). And C-D's own info bears it out:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Top profession, males
  • Top executives (10%)
  • Engineers (8%)
  • Lawyers (6%)
  • Other management occupations except farmers and farm managers (6%)
  • Postsecondary teachers (5%)
  • Sales representatives, services, wholesale and manufacturing (5%)
  • Physicians and surgeons (5%)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Top profession, females

  • Preschool, kindergarten, elementary and middle school teachers (9%)
  • Other management occupations except farmers and farm managers (7%)
  • Lawyers (5%)
  • Sales representatives, services, wholesale and manufacturing (5%)
  • Secretaries and administrative assistants (5%)
  • Other production occupations including supervisors (4%)
  • Postsecondary teachers (4%)
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:14 PM
 
8,228 posts, read 14,157,559 times
Reputation: 11226
A few months ago I heard part of a radio broadcast where they were talking about the lack of skilled workers in the midwest. That there are manufacturing jobs out there but that many are either 'skilled' or they want people without a bad record
I remembered in the late 90s a woman getting off active duty telling me that she and her husband waited for hours in line to take a urine test and fill out an application for basic jobs at the Mt pleasant indian casino resort. They got jobs out of all the applicants primarily because they passed the drug test and didn't have records.

Which leads me to wonder....when I watch the Dayton news I tend to be somewhat shocked by the amount of sort of low grade trashy crime. There's lower middle class, blue collar and then there is lower middle class trashy.

Does the work force here have an impact on why companies have left?

Are their training opportunities out there to learn a skilled manufacturing trade? Is Dayton a place where there are the jobs mentioned are are they other places? If training and jobs where there, could the unemployed work force here actually step up to the plate?

I couldn't find the exact article but here is one about Wisconsin

Good jobs are out there, but manufacturers seeking skilled workers

And another with this quote

With 8.2% unemployment, why does nobody want 200,000 trucking jobs? – Cafferty File - CNN.com Blogs


Employers say it's not just technical skills that workers are missing - they point to so-called "soft skills" - things like the ability to solve problems, think critically and work in teams.

In other words, a lot of Americans are too stupid to do the jobs that are available. Pretty sad.

If you google "there are jobs but not enough qualified workers" you get quite a few hits.

Gotta say, some of the new kids we are getting in the Air Force, yea those 'soft skills' aren't so good
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Ohio
14,637 posts, read 14,507,796 times
Reputation: 15347
Not surprising, unfortunately. I hate to sound elitist, but it's usually the poorer, underskilled people who have the most children, and Ohio isn't a major destination for relocation.
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