Historical curiosity about trolleys (Cleveland, Cincinnati: purchase, school, contractor)

[dxdtdemon]

The Wyoming/Watervilet/Shakertown streetcar gives me the same curiosity that I had about the one that I thought went on Burkhardt. Unless they operated it like a cable car on steep grades, both the hill it would've climbed after it crossed Woodman and the hill at the county line would be too steep for anything else that goes on rails that doesn't have modern European technology.

[etbetb]

Originally Posted by dxdtdemon

The Wyoming/Watervilet/Shakertown streetcar gives me the same curiosity that I had about the one that I thought went on Burkhardt. Unless they operated it like a cable car on steep grades, both the hill it would've climbed after it crossed Woodman and the hill at the county line would be too steep for anything else that goes on rails that doesn't have modern European technology.

Hillclimbing a modest hill when dry is no problem; electrically powered vehicles eat up hills, as they have plenty of torque. The problem comes when it's wet. For that purpose, since the dawn of trains (steam, electric and diesel), powered vehicles come equipped with sand boxes. They dropped a thin curtain of sand in front of the powered wheels allows the vehicles to get traction when the operator felt the train starting to slip. Leaves in the fall were much more of a problem; occasionally crews had to be dispatched to clean heavy deposits of leaves off hills.

I understand the grade for the Huffman hill is approx 2% (2 ft rise for every 100 lateral feet). Supposedly the largest grade on the Pennsylvania RR between the Mississippi and the Appalachians -- often the Pennsy had to attach additional engines to get the trains up and out of Dayton going east (and they'd disconnect the extra power at Xenia). I don't know if that grade assertion is true, or that it was the most in the region, but it's what I've heard. This is in comparison to San Francisco hills which can get up to 30 percentish. Getting an electric vehicle up the Huffman hill (or the Wayne Ave or the Far Hills Ave hills) has not ever been a problem.

etbetb

[dxdtdemon]

I guess I'm more accustomed to the struggles of freight trains on grades of less than 1% in Piqua and Botkins, and forget about the fact that the passenger stuff would be way lighter.

[SWOH]

Wanted to find a trolley thread and here it is! The latest:

New trolleys carry big price tag | www.mydaytondailynews.com

Big price tag initially, but worth it in the long run. We all know this $1.77/gal gas isn't going to last...

[CarpathianPeasant]

Originally Posted by OHKID

Wanted to find a trolley thread and here it is! The latest:

New trolleys carry big price tag | www.mydaytondailynews.com

Big price tag initially, but worth it in the long run. We all know this $1.77/gal gas isn't going to last...

Thanks. Cleaner air is always nice.

[IDtheftV]

Originally Posted by OHKID

Big price tag initially, but worth it in the long run. ...

It's a big shame that the new fleet is a bunch of POS's.

They bought them from a defense contractor who rightfully knew that selling to a local government would not be a legal risk to them, I guess.

It's too bad the builders of rail trolly systems can't have a line of rubber-tire vehicles. I always loved riding those busses downtown. For local and urban transit where there is constant stop-and-start, mass transit vehicles on rubber tires are far superior to those on rails.

[hensleya1]

Originally Posted by OHKID

Wanted to find a trolley thread and here it is! The latest:

New trolleys carry big price tag | www.mydaytondailynews.com

Big price tag initially, but worth it in the long run. We all know this $1.77/gal gas isn't going to last...

At $1.7 million each... it's absolutely ridiculous. As much as I would love to see the trolleys in continued action, at that kind of price tag it's hard to justify (and the additional maintenance that it would incur). It's a poor use of the 0.5% sales tax hike that Montgomery County residents pay to subsidize RTA.

They would be better served keeping a few trolleys (the small ones that are used for Urban Nights) around from a historical perspective, and scrapping the rest. I read about how much trouble RTA went through to maintain the current fleet of vehicles; it's not justifiable from a cost standpoint.

[IDtheftV]

Originally Posted by hensleya1

At $1.7 million each... it's absolutely ridiculous.

Right, but it's probably much cheaper than the street-level light rail being done in Cincinnati.

At least they can just drop the $1.7M vehicle right on the street and it can be operated. .....

.... until it stops working, but that's a different problem stemming from the same mentality re. spending taxpayer money.

[hensleya1]

Originally Posted by IDtheftV

Right, but it's probably much cheaper than the street-level light rail being done in Cincinnati.

At least they can just drop the $1.7M vehicle right on the street and it can be operated. .....

.... until it stops working, but that's a different problem stemming from the same mentality re. spending taxpayer money.

lol, Cincinnati has its own problems. Spending $150+ million on a streetcar that runs from 4th Street downtown, along Vine Street, up through OTR to Findlay Market. It doesn't stop at the current Metro hub, it doesn't stop at the casino, it doesn't stop at the riverfront transit center, and it doesn't stop at the Banks/stadiums.

And they have no way to pay for it. The Haile foundation pledged $900,000 each year for ten years. But the KPMG audit revealed annual operating costs of some $3.5 million. It'll be a permanent liability on the city's finances until they finally realize the folly of it and park the streetcars in the empty subway tunnel and never attempt that boondoggle again. But until they realize it, it's Mark Mallory's legacy.

Maybe they can reopen one of the subway stations, rehab it, park the streetcars there, and name it "Mallory's Station" as a monument to his massive failure as a mayor to tackle the real issues facing the city - the pension fund, the declining west side, the Brent Spence Bridge needing replacement, etc.

[SWOH]

Originally Posted by IDtheftV

It's a big shame that the new fleet is a bunch of POS's.

They bought them from a defense contractor who rightfully knew that selling to a local government would not be a legal risk to them, I guess.

It's too bad the builders of rail trolly systems can't have a line of rubber-tire vehicles. I always loved riding those busses downtown. For local and urban transit where there is constant stop-and-start, mass transit vehicles on rubber tires are far superior to those on rails.

Thanks for the background on it ID! Horrible to hear that is the case.

I will have to hope you are wrong, but considering the kind of market there is for electric trolleybuses (sporadic at best), I can't imagine much consistency. But if it's any consolation, our peer cities with trolleybuses include San Francisco, Boston, Philadelphia, and Vancouver.

And overall electric trolleybuses as a transportation means is a far superior system to traditional buses, streetcars, or BRT. It's more flexible, more efficient, and far lower cost. We are very fortunate to have the lines still in our backyard. I'm betting the technology will continue to improve, costs will decrease, and demand will go up as more cities consider more expansive alternative transit plans and integrate new trolley lines through their neighborhoods and even close suburbs. We are lucky to have it and may it be utilized as well as possible for 2015 and beyond!