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Old 01-14-2013, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,472 posts, read 6,196,253 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Sux View Post
I also put my plug in for Oakwood east of Far Hills...the streets between Shroyer and Far Hills, southeast corner of Oakwood. That neighborhood, Yellow Springs, and the Kettering Village/Town & Country areas are truely walkable as you can actually walk to supermarkets, drug stores, and things you'd need for daily living as well as just "taking the dog for a walk" type of walkable.
I agree with this sentiment as well. The residents of this area tend to be a lot more educated/cultured than inner city Dayton. I imagine one would be able to make friends and fit in to this area relatively easy, though I can't speak from experience. My personal experience was with Linden Heights, and to a degree South Park and Oregon District. Some of the nicer people I met in Dayton were Oregon District residents.

This area in Oakwood has a lot of UD staff, and professionals. It's also fairly walkable, and Oakwood has a nice business district on FarHills Ave, and not to mention Dorothy Lane Supermarket, and Arrow Wine and Spirits. Those were two of me personal favorites when I lived in Dayton.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,833,853 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Sux View Post
For Dayton a good example of the anti-city "we dont want to have anything to do with Dayton & the people who live there" attitude was the reaction of Beavercreek to the proposed...and relatively minor... RTA expansion.
Hi Dayton Sux--

I'm not going to get into the social and racial issues of RTA - that's a big ole can of worms that has already been beat to death.

Disclaimer over.

I moved to Dayton after the whole RTA spat but from what I can understand, I'm taking the side of Beavercreek on this one. Beavercreek is already served by Greene CATS, and the demand in any case is virtually nonexistent. Thing is, RTA is funded in large part by Montgomery County sales tax (which is consequently higher than Greene, Butler, and Warren Counties). And in order to expand into Greene County, they would invariably have to levy a tax on Greene County residents in order to pay for the expanded service - since RTA's funding has already been pinched in recent years.

I can't foresee Beavercreek/Greene County wanting to pay for something that few of them need or want.

***

On a semi-related note (and I'm contributing to thread drift here), but what is the utter hostility towards "suburban" expansion? The urbanistas here endlessly complain about suburban sprawl, traffic, and the "blandness" of cookie-cutter strip malls and single family housing. They complain about how it has no culture, how it's boring, and how it all looks the same.

And it may well be that there's not a lick's difference between West Chester, Springboro, Florence, and Beavercreek.

So?

That's where the development is because that's where people want to go, for one reason or another. I don't question their motives because it's not my right to do so. Good schools, lower taxes, a big yard, escaping city-funded boondoggles, whatever their reason. So I don't get what the city boosters are all sore about, unless they simply don't want other people to have the option of moving to the suburbs.

That's what we call progress and development. It's called making money. Which is a rare thing in the economy these days, regardless if it happens on the other side of the city's corporation limits.

Frankly, I think the urban guys are just incensed that the tax dollars would dare flee to the suburbs. Rather than fixing their own problems, they play the blame game and heap scorn on the people who would dare leave.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:48 AM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
4,243 posts, read 7,148,561 times
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Quote:
And in order to expand into Greene County, they would invariably have to levy a tax on Greene County residents in order to pay for the expanded service
The RTA thing would have been free to Beavercreek. RTA was not going to ask for a transit tax in Green County. The idea was to turn Bus 1, that goes to WSU, into a loop via Fairfield, Pentagon Blvd, and Grange Hall, and then back down Col Glenn into the city.
The recurring cost to RTA would have been the driver salary and fuel, and the driver salary was already being paid since they had bus 1 already running out there.

@@@

Quote:
That's where the development is because that's where people want to go, for one reason or another. So I don't get what the city boosters are all sore about, unless they simply don't want other people to have the option of moving to the suburbs.

Frankly, I think the urban guys are just incensed that the tax dollars would dare flee to the suburbs
Yes, that is part of it (lost tax revenue), and in a weak market metro areas (one that is dying or has a very low growth rate) there is a sort of zero-sum thinking going on, too.

I tend to be a big fan of Dayton suburbia because it usually is fairly well planned (comparativly speaking) and many of the suburbs have a sense of character due to their small town cores (Centerville & Miamisburg are the best examples) and ameneties.

And, with the advent of the interest in Mid Century Modern i'ts been recognized that Dayton has a lot of quality modernist suburban development . See this report from the Ohio Historical Society:


http://ww2.ohiohistory.org/resource/.../rp/rp-02.html
Ohio Modern: Preserving Our Recent Past
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,472 posts, read 6,196,253 times
Reputation: 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
That's where the development is because that's where people want to go, for one reason or another. I don't question their motives because it's not my right to do so. Good schools, lower taxes, a big yard, escaping city-funded boondoggles, whatever their reason. So I don't get what the city boosters are all sore about, unless they simply don't want other people to have the option of moving to the suburbs.
I could only assume you are taking a passive/agressive swipe at debating with me.

Anyway, In Dayton's case people choose the suburbs because the city offers (for the most part) a poor quality of life and is loaded with poor people. It's also a dangerous city, especially on the west side of town in neighborhoods like Dayton View, Santa Clara, et al. Dayton's suburbs are in way better shape and offer a decent quality of life. Dayton simply does not have mass redevelopment happening, and what is happening is inconsequential in the scheme of things. Unless someone is willing to hit South Park, Saint Anne's Hill, Oregon District, McPherson Town, etc, then the suburbs are a great alternative to the sad state Dayton finds itself. So basically, I agree with what you are saying, though I am supposed to be somehow sore, or something?

Cincinnati on the other hand is a city that has added significant population downtown, OTR, and Pendleton due to all the development. Dayton is not in Cincinnati's league by a long shot and doesn't really need to be mentioned in the same breath, unless they are planning to follow suit with the likes of their own version of 3CDC.

But who would fund it? UD perhaps? They certainly would benefit. I am afraid that Dayton has lost it's corporate clout. That where a majority of the funding to get 3CDC started came from. Corporations in downtown Cincinnati spearheaded OTR's transformation, once 3CDC was up and running, they are leading the charge.

Anyway, I really don't want to drag this tread mercilessly off topic, so perhaps if you would like to discuss more of these details we should start a new thread. Dayton vs. it's suburbs or something?
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,472 posts, read 6,196,253 times
Reputation: 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Sux View Post
I tend to be a big fan of Dayton suburbia because it usually is fairly well planned (comparativly speaking) and many of the suburbs have a sense of character due to their small town cores (Centerville & Miamisburg are the best examples) and ameneties.
Centerville and Miamisburg are very cool. I like the riverfront in Miamisburg and their downtown and surrounding neighborhoods. I used to bike from East Dayton via the trails down to Miamisburg. Very cool and very scenic. I wish Cincinnati had the bike trails that Dayton does. It truly is an asset.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,833,853 times
Reputation: 2353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Sux View Post
The RTA thing would have been free to Beavercreek. RTA was not going to ask for a transit tax in Green County. The idea was to turn Bus 1, that goes to WSU, into a loop via Fairfield, Pentagon Blvd, and Grange Hall, and then back down Col Glenn into the city.
The recurring cost to RTA would have been the driver salary and fuel, and the driver salary was already being paid since they had bus 1 already running out there.
Hi Dayton Sux--

In that case (and as long as RTA has a feasible plan to counter the perceived 'safety factor' that bus stops invariably bring when they're placed in the suburbs), then Beavercreek doesn't have much of an excuse to refuse to allow RTA to stop at the mall.

Unless they're so afraid that the bus will bring a load of punk kids from the hood who will loot the mall from end to end and kidnap all the teenage girls who hang out there on week nights before waiting patiently at the bus stop for 45 minutes until #1 comes again, all the while arms filled with loot, praying that the police don't make it by then?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Sux
Yes, that is part of it (lost tax revenue), and in a weak market metro areas (one that is dying or has a very low growth rate) there is a sort of zero-sum thinking going on, too.

I tend to be a big fan of Dayton suburbia because it usually is fairly well planned (comparativly speaking) and many of the suburbs have a sense of character due to their small town cores (Centerville & Miamisburg are the best examples) and ameneties.

And, with the advent of the interest in Mid Century Modern i'ts been recognized that Dayton has a lot of quality modernist suburban development . See this report from the Ohio Historical Society:


OHS - Ohio Historic Preservation Office (OHPO) - Ohio Modern: Preserving Our Recent Past
Ohio Modern: Preserving Our Recent Past
I can corroborate this - I've spent my share of time in Centerville's town core - I'm a big fan of it. I highly recommend the Graeters on the northeast corner if you get a chance.

Something tells me that Centerville and Miamisburg were once small towns not unlike Spring Valley or Waynesville that just got swallowed up by the expanding suburbs (but still maintained at least some semblance of its own character)?

That said, it's unfortunate that Dayton (and many midwestern cities) have been on the losing side of the zero-sum game. I ran down the numbers from the 2010 census a while back and found out that the combined population of Miami Township, Washington Township, and Beavercreek is now greater than the city of Dayton proper. (I used those three areas since they're some of the most affluent, and home to the big suburban malls.)

In a similar vein, I could say a similar thing about Cincinnati - how the population growth in West Chester, Mason, and Lebanon in Ohio (and Florence, Independence, and Union on the Kentucky side) far outstrips anything that Cincinnati could even dream of.

Hence the calls for "regionalism" and "tax sharing" - which is simply a political method of funneling those suburban tax dollars back into the cities.

Rather than growing the pie, the city focuses on fighting over the suburbs' share of the pie.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:09 PM
 
908 posts, read 1,411,416 times
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[quote=Dayton Sux;27760292]The RTA thing would have been free to Beavercreek. RTA was not going to ask for a transit tax in Green County. The idea was to turn Bus 1, that goes to WSU, into a loop via Fairfield, Pentagon Blvd, and Grange Hall, and then back down Col Glenn into the city.
The recurring cost to RTA would have been the driver salary and fuel, and the driver salary was already being paid since they had bus 1 already running out there.



I don't know where you get the idea that they weren't going to tax everyone in Beavercreek. They were definitely using this as a way to split the tax over a greater number of people, many of which live nowhere near the mall.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Portland or.
10 posts, read 20,322 times
Reputation: 23
wow.. whew.. you guys got off track! But nonetheless I have read your discourse...my dream of helping enlighten Dayton has been doused. I guess all these years in the Portland bubble have given me hope for other cities. My best friend has been saying all along that Y.S. is the place for us, considering our children and their environment. Unfortunately there aren't too many places for sale there that are in our price range for Oh. and possibly only my husband working to start with. I have been stalking a property on the edge of Riverside/eastmont/Beavercreek for awhile, looks like it has Beavercreek schools. Anyone care to share on this area? It also sits on 1 acre, which will allow me to have my "farm". It's a stones throw from the base, downtown and Y.S. I really feel sad about the reality of Dayton and it's issues now after reading what everyone has written. I'm just a rogue ohio girl that hasn't lived in state since I left for europe in 96. Now being a mommy and not caring about the cool factor anymore, I am ready to return to be closer to my immediate family and my best friend. I believe that you can make your surrounding reality whatever you choose, it would just be nice to entice others to see things that way too. Again, I've been a west coaster for over 13 years now...things are different here.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,833,853 times
Reputation: 2353
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenp1110 View Post
wow.. whew.. you guys got off track! But nonetheless I have read your discourse...my dream of helping enlighten Dayton has been doused. I guess all these years in the Portland bubble have given me hope for other cities. My best friend has been saying all along that Y.S. is the place for us, considering our children and their environment. Unfortunately there aren't too many places for sale there that are in our price range for Oh. and possibly only my husband working to start with. I have been stalking a property on the edge of Riverside/eastmont/Beavercreek for awhile, looks like it has Beavercreek schools. Anyone care to share on this area? It also sits on 1 acre, which will allow me to have my "farm". It's a stones throw from the base, downtown and Y.S. I really feel sad about the reality of Dayton and it's issues now after reading what everyone has written. I'm just a rogue ohio girl that hasn't lived in state since I left for europe in 96. Now being a mommy and not caring about the cool factor anymore, I am ready to return to be closer to my immediate family and my best friend. I believe that you can make your surrounding reality whatever you choose, it would just be nice to entice others to see things that way too. Again, I've been a west coaster for over 13 years now...things are different here.
Hi jenp1110--

As another poster candidly said, Yellow Springs is this area's Indian reservation for extreme liberal types. I try to tell the more conservative friends that the residents don't bite, but they seem to believe that they should take off and nuke the entire site from orbit - it's the only way to be sure.

The schools are decent as far as I can tell, but be prepared to pay an enormous amount for the house and yearly property taxes, especially compared to almost anything else in the area.

If the property's in Beavercreek schools, that's a good thing - they're certainly in the upper echelons of the region's public schools. I can't comment on Riverside (whether it even has its own school district?), and I have a low opinion of Dayton Public.

To sum up, Dayton isn't Portland, it is unlikely to ever be like Portland, and if was too like Portland, I'd move. There's a limit on the number of liberal white people I can stand in one day and five minutes in Portland would push me over the edge.

Dayton's got its mixed bag of problems like any other city, and I believe in its future (unlike some of my fellow posters here).
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:38 PM
 
225 posts, read 460,957 times
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I don't know what your price range is but I would definitely check out the Patterson Park neighborhood of Dayton. It sits just southeast of the intersection of Shroyer and Patterson on Dayton's south side. Very walkable, beautiful houses, and wonderful people.
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