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Old 07-08-2013, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,007 posts, read 4,827,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetcreed View Post
In Dayton you have this underdeveloped area between the city and suburbs.
I'm not sure where this underdeveloped area is, exactly. Going to the south/east Dayton runs smack into Oakley, Kettering, and Riverside. Same can be said of going West/N. West. North Dayton has a lot industrial parks along Stanley. Going out towards Beavercreek is WPAFB. Maybe all the acreage taken up by the base is what you are calling underdeveloped?
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Old 07-08-2013, 05:37 PM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,781,531 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomJones123 View Post
I'm not sure where this underdeveloped area is, exactly. Going to the south/east Dayton runs smack into Oakley, Kettering, and Riverside. Same can be said of going West/N. West. North Dayton has a lot industrial parks along Stanley. Going out towards Beavercreek is WPAFB. Maybe all the acreage taken up by the base is what you are calling underdeveloped?
Agreed with TomJones123.

The only area I can think of like that is just north of Old North Dayton along 201/202 in Riverside. A lot of that is (or was) floodplain - they re-adjust floodplains every so often, so I know a new Ryan Homes development is going in off 201. A developer of the shopping center directly across from the former Meijer along Harshman had to fight many lawsuits because the development was built on a wetland (at the northern edge of the "open space").

That in part is also due to the way Huber Heights was built. The city (and thus the land Charles H. Huber bought for his "community of all-brick homes") is entirely located in Wayne Twp, directly above Mad River Twp (which contains Riverside, Dayton and some open space).

Otherwise, the metro is segmented primarily by the shallow rivers and their floodplains. That's why Kitty Hawk Golf Course was not built into industrial buildings, for instance. Otherwise the city is not really segmented and flows together, although development is lopsided to the south (Daytonnati) and east (WPAFB).
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:00 AM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
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I wonder if the geography has something to do with perception.

Most of the older parts of Dayton are in a valley, so when you are out in...say...Oakwood, Kettering, or Beavercreek....and maybe even Vandalia or Englewood or HH, you are up "above", which makes the city seem more apart, perhaps, in a perceptual sense.....more distant and geographically separate....maybe its just me since Im more attuned to topography & geography....

(makes me think of lyrics in that old pop song, 'One Tin Soldier', about the valley vs mountain people)

As for open space, in the case of Huber Heights there actually is a bunch of farmland and open space along Brandt Pike and Troy Pike...say up to Harshman/Needmore Rd.... that seperates Huber from Dayton proper....and there is a bit of this lack of development..really just less intense development vs "lack".... along North Main, too, sort of separating Shiloh and Harrsion Twp areas from Englewood/Clayton....
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,012,544 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Sux View Post
).

this injects a partisan spin on the issue....
Now, down in Louisville the city is pretty much dominated by the Dems, tho there is a healthy GOP minority on their city council, and prior to merger the GOP did occasionally win county commission seats and the county judge/executive (which is sort of like being the mayor of the county...Mitch McConnell got his start as county judge-executive).

Yet Louisville is doing quite well. Yes there are issues there with the public school system, for similar reasons there are issues with the Dayton system, but the white upper-middle class have not deserted the city to the extent they have in Dayton. In fact the Louisville metro area appears to be a magnet for college-educated young adults, many of whom are moving into the city.

So I wouldn’t put urban success or failure down to “the Democrats” (do we really mean the liberals”?). The situation in the Dayton metro is specific to Dayton, the extent to which “urbanism” or “the city” has been rejected by the suburban community, including young adults. You do not find this in Louisville, or Lexington, for that matter.
Dayton Sux--

I'd be careful about using either Louisville or Lexington as an example due to their nature. Both cities merged with their respective counties, which prior to the merger (especially in the case of Louisville) included a lot of inner-ring suburbs and semi/unincorporated areas. The area of Louisville proper prior to the merger was ~260,000, while Jefferson County as a whole is three times that. I would not be surprised to find the city proper to be dominated by one party, with more diversity in the more suburban areas, which is what gives you that 'healthy GOP minority'.

You said that Mitch McConnell got his start as a countywide judge-executive - you have your answer right there. I'd bet good money he didn't win many votes inside Louisville proper on his way to victory. Arguably a near 50-50 split is best for government, since it ensures a diversity of ideas and a better debate.

Dayton doesn't have that. I can only name one GOP mayor in living memory, Mike Turner, and because of the city's form of government the mayor is just one voice on the city commission. The two runoff candidates for mayor this fall are both from the same party. All four city commissioners are from the same party. All three county commissioners are from the same party.

So, yes - I think it's fair to point the finger at one party responsible for the mess the area's in, especially if they've been in control the entire time.

---

Just replace "Oldham County" with "Beavercreek" and you wind up with the same racial/socioeconomic issues. The pre-merger area of Louisville is still losing population, the entire county is barely squeaking ahead, while the next county over sees 30+% growth per the last Census.

Which sounds a lot like Dayton losing population, Montgomery County breaking even if they're lucky, and Beavercreek recording double digit gains on the Census.

---

Lastly, on Lexington - I'm not sure where to go with that town, since their city-county merged some decades ago. It's equally plausible that the suburban development in Jessamine County is due to simply running out of room in Lexington as it would be about white flight or some other factor. (So, in sum, I'm not going to go there since I really don't know.)
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:10 PM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
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Quote:
Just replace "Oldham County" with "Beavercreek" and you wind up with the same racial/socioeconomic issues.
...which allows me to circle back to the thread header. Unlike Beavercreek, the Louisville transit authority does run busses (rush hour service) as far east as the county seat of Lagrange...and the other county that is experiencing a lot of growth, Bullit, also has bus service into downtown Louisville. This bus service is also not just one bus in and one bus out....rather, multiple mornign and evening runs.

So, the 'fear of crime' isnt the deal breaker there that it is here.

As for Mitch McConnell, he lives within the old city limits of Louisville, on Trevelyan Way. A nice area. Which I guess is the point. There are still nice areas within the old city limits. I dont think you can draw a partisan political equivilant here...Democratic hegemony in metro Louisville...not a problem. Democratic hegemony in Dayton...a problem. So its not
"The Democrats".

I think it's more the form of government that breeds a sort of hands-off bland style, and lack of leadership from the business community. In the Dayton area governance is more about "administration", while in Louisville, with its old system of "mayor of the city/mayor of the county" (as well as the new merged system) it was about strong executove, it was more about "leadership"....plus you had a business community that was bipartisan when it came to urban growth...you had leadership in that community that was both Democrat and Republican (the current mayor comes from the business community, but is a Democrat)

Anyway, we are digressing from the issue.
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Old 07-10-2013, 06:14 PM
 
Location: NKY's Campbell Co.
1,818 posts, read 3,888,735 times
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First, express service to a park&ride is different from local service running every hour or two. Perhaps that would be the answer to this problem?

Yes, Easton is serviced mainly by the crosstown #95 which runs on Morse Road (used to take it back and forth from OSU to Easton via High St. #2. Morse Road is not exactly the clientele Easton is looking for either, but Easton still grows. Even more amazing is the #16 that runs through Linden up towards Easton. That area is even worse! Polaris, unless things have changed since 2011, only had express bus service. Tuttle is served by the #18, which really does not have any bad areas on its route.

The key to "keeping the peace" is good patrolling and proper response. If you don't like someone's attitude, tell security, call the police. I would not recommend confronting someone over an issue. Let the professionals handle it.

Personally, I wish Beavercreek would grow up. I love living there. But sometimes people inject politics into the silliest things (on both sides, really). It is a friggin bus! Just learn to cope, it's not the end of the world, as long as you don't step in front of it.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Phoenix
1,277 posts, read 4,063,561 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Sux View Post
I wonder if the geography has something to do with perception.

Most of the older parts of Dayton are in a valley, so when you are out in...say...Oakwood, Kettering, or Beavercreek....and maybe even Vandalia or Englewood or HH, you are up "above", which makes the city seem more apart, perhaps, in a perceptual sense.....more distant and geographically separate....maybe its just me since Im more attuned to topography & geography....

(makes me think of lyrics in that old pop song, 'One Tin Soldier', about the valley vs mountain people)

As for open space, in the case of Huber Heights there actually is a bunch of farmland and open space along Brandt Pike and Troy Pike...say up to Harshman/Needmore Rd.... that seperates Huber from Dayton proper....and there is a bit of this lack of development..really just less intense development vs "lack".... along North Main, too, sort of separating Shiloh and Harrsion Twp areas from Englewood/Clayton....

Exactly the development between dayton and its suburbs is much less instense and sparse than if you go to a city like Columbus where it literally never ends and you can not even tell when you're leaving a suburb then entering city limits and vice versa. There's no townships between or lower density development, it just continues on and on.

Thus the mass transit does too.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:16 AM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,781,531 times
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I think that has to do more with Columbus' annexation patterns than the built environment.... Not that it has anything to do with Beavercreek's mass transit issue anyway.

I myself vote with my feet and shop at the Greene or Dayton Mall over Fairfield Commons. Why? Primarily better store variety and convenience is my reasoning.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Phoenix
1,277 posts, read 4,063,561 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHKID View Post
I think that has to do more with Columbus' annexation patterns than the built environment.... Not that it has anything to do with Beavercreek's mass transit issue anyway.

I myself vote with my feet and shop at the Greene or Dayton Mall over Fairfield Commons. Why? Primarily better store variety and convenience is my reasoning.
Not entirely. But partly. It also has to do with it being a larger metro with much larger demand for higher density development in and around the suburbs. And Columbus is a tight metro. It is pretty compact and there is little in the way of geography to prevent compact growth. If Columbus' economy had not boomed, since the 80s/90s, then you would see more small scale development before entering the suburbs.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Cincinnati (Norwood)
3,378 posts, read 3,694,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetcreed View Post
Exactly the development between dayton and its suburbs is much less instense and sparse than if you go to a city like Columbus where it literally never ends and you can not even tell when you're leaving a suburb then entering city limits and vice versa...it just continues on and on...
Quote:
Originally Posted by streetcreed View Post
...And Columbus is a tight metro. It is pretty compact and there is little in the way of geography to prevent compact growth...
In all fairness you might want to leave Columbus out of this picture entirely. After all, in SW Ohio, Columbus isn't generally regarded as anyone's "model-of-growth" (witness the two above contradictions for reasons why) and its expanse of generic, bland, and broken suburbs aren't what needs to be imitated in either Dayton or nearby.
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