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Old 07-21-2013, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,007 posts, read 4,834,109 times
Reputation: 924

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHKID View Post
demo'ing 12 perfectly good office buildings downtown to reduce a vacancy statistic doesn't happen either, so it's all for the better I guess....
The problem with having so much vacant office space is a lot of it is class C space, and terribly expensive to upgrade to class A. Actually, some demo would do downtown good. However, just demolishing them and having vacant lot's is not a good idea either. Surface parking? Honestly, knocking them down with a committed developer in place would be the way to go. But who is willing to invest that much money in downtown Dayton? It's a catch 22. So far the answer has been to let the spaces remain, and let them continue to be a drag on downtown. Downtown Dayton's office vacancy rate was the highest in the nation as of 2012.
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Old 07-21-2013, 12:50 PM
 
Location: East Dayton, OH
55 posts, read 76,022 times
Reputation: 115
Default Why a full service grocery store downtown? This is why.

Quote:
I think in general, the lack of a good grocery option is a reflection of the demographic in Dayton. That's why you see so many dollar stores. What site selection expert in his right mind would put a more up-scale, full service grocery store on east third?
Why? Anyone who realizes that over 2K people live in downtown Dayton...and that more people would live there if there were more services. This is basic city planning. That is what a real city center offers...not just a work-here/go-home-now mentality.People who live here often shop at cheap stores because that's the only "choice" without traveling miles, which is really no choice at all. It could CERTAINLY support a Trader Joe's. (A friend, in fact, who is the manager of a restaurant in the Oregon District mentioned the behind the scenes takes of this, but I've yet to see anything real come of it. To be fair, he was right about the restaurants opening on E 5th, and the guitar shop that is soon opening on E 5th, a few blocks from the new brew pub in the 45403.)

This is the problem with Dayton's (mis)management, which is to me, small-minded and actually rather prejudiced. For example, when I lived in a section of Boston that was primarily non-white and definitely working class, the excuse for the lack of recycling services was always along the lines of "those people don't recycle." Guess what happened when recycling services were brought to the community. "Those people" started recycling. If "those people" had a grocery store like Trader's (which IS inexpensive), I bet many of "them" would shop there too. You know? Just my opinion, and what I've seen work in places in larger cities/neighborhood I've lived in (e.g., Bed-Stuy in Brooklyn, NY). It just makes sense. But it may be a long time coming. That I agree with, though sadly.

--L

*I am part of the "they" demographic (though I realize probably not the "they-they" demographic that I logically think you mean).
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Old 07-21-2013, 01:01 PM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
4,245 posts, read 5,759,704 times
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There's nothing wrong with dollar stores...true they dont have snob appeal but they seem to me the modern verion of the old Kresges and Woolworth 5 & 10 stores that I remember from when I was a kid in Chicago.

Dayton is a poor city, so the market isnt there for upscale groceries..or any kind of grocery. Yet, I always thought there might be a market for an urban Wal-Mart or Meijer, like they have in Chicago (large floorplate supermarkets on old industrial sites), but this doesnt jibe with the "organic" "Trader Joes""Whole Foods" brand preference of the hipster/yuppie demographic...tho it would save the urban underclass a bus trip to suburbia to go shopping, like many of them do....
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Old 07-21-2013, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Ohio
11,802 posts, read 9,736,484 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy Striker View Post
This is the problem with Dayton's (mis)management, which is to me, small-minded and actually rather prejudiced. For example, when I lived in a section of Boston that was primarily non-white and definitely working class, the excuse for the lack of recycling services was always along the lines of "those people don't recycle." Guess what happened when recycling services were brought to the community. "Those people" started recycling. If "those people" had a grocery store like Trader's (which IS inexpensive), I bet many of "them" would shop there too. You know? Just my opinion, and what I've seen work in places in larger cities/neighborhood I've lived in (e.g., Bed-Stuy in Brooklyn, NY). It just makes sense. But it may be a long time coming. That I agree with, though sadly.
Agree, it's worked in West Oakland and Hunter's Point in SF also. It just takes either a company to take a leap of faith (unlikely) or a workers' collective to start one up like they did with the brewpub.
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Old 07-21-2013, 01:08 PM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
4,245 posts, read 5,759,704 times
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As for Trader Joes. There is one in Louisville. There is one in Cincinnati. There is one in Dayton. And there is ONLY one....get the picture?

I WAS hoping for that Constatinos, though....
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:10 PM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,791,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomJones123 View Post
The problem with having so much vacant office space is a lot of it is class C space, and terribly expensive to upgrade to class A. Actually, some demo would do downtown good. However, just demolishing them and having vacant lot's is not a good idea either. Surface parking? Honestly, knocking them down with a committed developer in place would be the way to go. But who is willing to invest that much money in downtown Dayton? It's a catch 22. So far the answer has been to let the spaces remain, and let them continue to be a drag on downtown. Downtown Dayton's office vacancy rate was the highest in the nation as of 2012.
Yes and no.


There is too much office space downtown in general. There is just as little demand for Class A office space as there is for Class C. In fact, near 200,000 sq.ft of Class C office space was bought by companies in the Dayton area for expansion over the last two weeks:
Stratacache buys two buildings in Vandalia, plans to hire up... | www.daytondailynews.com (not behind the paywall)
WinWholesale buys office building, consolidating workers - Dayton Business Journal


Look at Austin Landing. The original plan was to have a glut of new Class A office space. But then they found that they couldn't get tenants, so they reverted to retail at Miami Twp's dismay. The same is true downtown.



The "Office Companies" locate in Cincinnati and Columbus, not here. We do a lot better with industrial uses. There is office demand near WPAFB for base contractors, but they need the close proximity to the base for contracts. Research Blvd. is too far away for mot of them, much less downtown. They need to be inside the gates.


What IS demanded is residential. That's why I really like the Downtown Dayton Partership's site proposals: A Greater Downtown Dayton Plan - Renderings & Re-Imaginings . Probably most of these won't happen, yes, but it's the right direction. And some of the conversions, like the Paru Tower or Merchant's Row along E. Third, would be easier.


I myself have toyed around with the idea of renting office space in someplace like 40 W. Fourth, making modifications and turning it into a sweet loft (assuming the building owners would allow me to buy the space and city zoning would allow me to implement it). But that's a year or two off haha. Actually, 40 W. Fourth would be a very easy conversion to residential, but instead everyone wants to build new.....

That is, if anything even gets built in the first place...
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Old 07-21-2013, 03:08 PM
 
Location: East Dayton, OH
55 posts, read 76,022 times
Reputation: 115
Dayton will stay a poor city if it continues to embrace the "we're a poor city and can't change" mentality. The dollar store problem is that the foods are extremely unhealthy; filled with hidden sugars and loaded with sodium. (This is the same at Wal-Mart. I've traveled to 46 states in the US, and actually couldn't find foods there I wanted expect in their "organic section." That includes beans without pork; not exactly luxury items.) AND the food is not actually cheap. They're mostly one-off dinners rather than food you could use to prepare food in bulk for the week. It's just not thought out at all, and kind of pathetic, really.

Also, there is NO Trader Joe's in Dayton proper. It's in Oakwood, and closer to Kettering. Fortunately there is a good bus line that goes there, but honestly? Not enough. And let's be serious about what that indicates. Plenty of my East Dayton neighbors shop there. IT IS CHEAP...and actually cheap, not smoke and mirrors cheap. It's just a hassle to get to, as is almost any "real" grocery.

The part that is very frustrating is exactly what was pointed out: driving/taking the bus to the suburbs for groceries...and usually after a whole day of work or a chunk of "leisure time." That's not how real, functional cities operate. If Dayton wants to continue the trend, so be it, but I won't call it a good idea. However, a co-op is some great thinking. That's what ended up happening in Boston, as my neighborhood was totally underserved. There was no grocery for miles. It changed a lot of things for the better...including bringing jobs in.

Collectively, this issue can be solved. I hope Dayton's future will include such.

--L
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Old 07-21-2013, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,007 posts, read 4,834,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy Striker View Post
Why? Anyone who realizes that over 2K people live in downtown Dayton...and that more people would live there if there were more services. This is basic city planning.
No, it's not the city's job to put a grocery store in downtown Dayton. Companies hire site search executives to scout areas to put their stores where the merchandise they sell will meet a target demographic. That simple. Downtown Dayton, and surrounding neighborhoods apparently do not meet criteria for a decent grocery store.
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Old 07-21-2013, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,007 posts, read 4,834,109 times
Reputation: 924
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHKID View Post
Yes and no.

There is too much office space downtown in general. There is just as little demand for Class A office space as there is for Class C. In fact, near 200,000 sq.ft of Class C office space was bought by companies in the Dayton area for expansion over the last two weeks:
Good point. In Cincinnati we are seeing a lot of vacant office space converted to residential, and it's gobbled up as soon as it hits the market, whether rental or condo. I'm a Dayton expat, and would love to see momentum in downtown Dayton. I left in 2010, and sadly, it seems like things are the same - stagnant at best.

I particularly love downtown's surrounding neighborhoods - Oregon District, McPherson Town, Saint Anne's Hill - specifically.
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Old 07-21-2013, 07:24 PM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,791,155 times
Reputation: 1813
^The city has been stagnant since Patterson died! (but seriously though... that doesn't seem too inaccurate haha).

Every couple years a big initiative seems to happen. Like demolishing Rike's for the Schuster Center around 2000-2002, Riverscape around 2003 or so, Caresource around 2005-2009, etc. It's small steps, but for the most part they seem to be well thought-out. Too bad the recession killed the small amount of momentum the city had building after the 90's. Hopefully some of that momentum will start to come back over the next few years, but who knows? Sometimes watching this city is painful, but it's also important to take a step back and realize that we have it pretty good compared to a lot of other areas, even if a few things are lost along the way.


It will be interesting to see what happens and what doesn't since the economy around here is finally starting to pick up again to the point where businesses are willing to spend. I think to start there will probably be more commercial realty purchases, like the ones that happened last week, since the supply of vacant space around here is huge, and space is cheap!

But that will make it feel like the city isn't "progressing" per se, because there probably won't be much new construction until the demand is eaten up more. That's one of the reasons why I am shocked by the Water St. proposal, I just think it would be way too cost prohibitive to build new when someone can just renovate old office space and easily undercut both the price and the amount of time needed to get the residential units online...


Also, I found this Loopnet entry for 40 W. Fourth: LoopNet - 40 West Fourth Street, Office Building, 40 West Fourth Street, Dayton, OH
Interesting because it has 240,000 sq. ft., is Class B office space, and is only 5% occupied! They don't list the asking price (maybe it is too high?), but it seems like buying this property and converting it is a no-brainer. Instead, people are demolishing buildings to build student dorms right across the street! Maybe they got good tax credits, but 40 W. 4th seems like it would have been a lot easier option...
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