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Old 07-30-2014, 08:44 PM
 
1,842 posts, read 1,379,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHKID View Post
I believe resident poster CarpathianPeasant knows a lot about the neighborhood. I'm surprised she hasn't come by yet. Additionally, Dayton History Books provides a lot of historical info on it:
DAYTON HISTORY BOOKS FREE ONLINE
Do you have a cite for the specific page you saw? Your link points to the root page and it's getting to be a huge site. ( The facebook version is even more huge. )

( I just made a donation over the $100 level because I have gotten such a nice time looking at all his stuff. )

I appreciate the sentiment of saving the great places that are walking distance to other great places and streets with architectural interest, but
Quote:
Originally Posted by IDtheftV View Post
my OP
was trying to suggest a way to keep the vast stretches of East and West and North Dayton that were just places where ordinary working class people getting by on $2-3/day in the nineteenteens lived in houses that were nothing special for the day from rotting away to nothing.

It's relatively easy to find people to be interested in a beautiful old house, but what about this one:
random E Dayton house .
or this one:
random W Dayton house .

What happens to places like the Oregon District or St. Anne's Hill or Grafton Hill when they are surrounded for miles by nothing but weed-choked streets that used to have children playing on them? They will be nothing and will also start to rot.

I was also thinking that rather than trying to recreate a full basement for a house that gets moved, just having a utility space would be adequate. These are simple places and a basement is a nice-to-have and not a need-to-have. It also wouldn't be necessary to move all that many houses. A block might have mostly crappy houses where half of them need to be torn down to make nice big yards for the ones that were deemed OK to leave. I'm thinking that for the level of house I've shown in the pictures, if they need to be moved
more than one or two slots away, it's not worth it.

People seem to interpret what I suggested as a need to move houses blocks away. They keep mentioning the need to have a nice, new basement and foundation waiting for the moved house. We aren't talking about saving painted ladies. Whatever basement is there, as long as it's structurally OK, would be fine.

I wouldn't really care if the blocks were mostly emptied and new houses went in on huge lots.

Last edited by IDtheftV; 07-30-2014 at 09:44 PM..
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Old 07-31-2014, 01:28 PM
 
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^Sorry, I should have directed it right to a couple of posts there. There is a wealth of info on the site, I just was too lazy to dig it up haha.


And I do see what you are saying. In effect, suburbanizing the city with older remaining homes on large lots. The best local example of this is the new Coco's Bistro, which is now housed in a historic building on Warren. The atmosphere surrounding is "fake suburban" because the building has a large parking lot built on the site of what was another building.

It's not a bad model, and likely it is a model which will have to be used in places like Miami Chapel, Edgemont, and especially other places to the southwest of the city.
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Old 07-31-2014, 01:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHKID View Post
The best local example of this is the new Coco's Bistro, which is now housed in a historic building on Warren.
I posted a shot from just S of there on my 'before-and-after' thread:
Warren St - just S of Rt-35 . It was a neighborhood then.

Those apartments ( Marvin Gardens ) are still there. http://www.marvingardensapartments.org/
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Old 07-31-2014, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
165 posts, read 332,194 times
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ID,
Thanks to you and others for the useful information. The two housing examples you shared were excellent to illustrate the challenges of revitalizing old neighborhoods. While the first example seemed to show a relatively stable working class neighborhood, the second example, on Ward, shows a neighborhood that has disappeared one house at a time and now only presents a picture of abandonment and decline. As you had suggested, one could take the remaining houses on South Broadway, Belton, Ward, and Orleans to probably collect them together on one block to approximate the original density of the neighborhood. Could someone take those streets and re-partition lots so that each property could have a large yard? Probably, but there are additional considerations. Some of these houses were of such low quality to begin with that to bring them up to modern code would be cost prohibitive. Even if you carefully selected a half dozen to save and rehab, there's the issue of location. Real estate values can fluctuate wildly depending on location. You can't move I-75 from the neighborhood so the road noise will always be there. South Broadway in this area is a patchwork of old warehouses and businesses with high security fences that signal "danger, high crime area" even if crime statistics do not support that assumption. One could doll up these small houses to the nines and they still would appeal to a limited segment of the house buying market. The visually unattractive location would deter most would-be buyers from this already limited pool of buyers. They also lack the historic architectural charm of the smaller (mostly brick) cottages one finds in the South Park neighborhood. Even there, a rare brick mansard roofed Second Empire style house on Wayne Avenue recently sold for a paltry $5k.

Part of this issue is a legacy situation. It was not until the post-WWII era that zoning was taken very seriously. In the late 1800's a speculative builder-developer could buy a few spare lots right next to a factory and build some of these small cottages for workers. A corner grocery with essential staples might go into the mix and a saloon or two to quench the thirst of the factory workers would be added. Prohibition killed the neighborhood saloons, supermarkets put the Mom & Pop corner grocers out of business, and the factory closed in the late 1960's because it would cost too much to modernize. So you have a few houses remaining minus the original interdependent economic environment that caused them to be built. I can't envision a situation where any of these houses would be rehabbed-their small square footage, lack of architectural character, and state of repair/maintenance precludes almost everything except eventual demolition. That said, I could see some of these small cottages perhaps being included as part of a Habitat type project where volunteer labor offsets the rehab costs. It would be interesting to learn how many are rentals and how many are owner-occupied. Those with a stake in the neighborhood (homeowners) are often the last to abandon and leave their homes.

While that assessment may be disappointing, even more disappointing is that there are formerly grand Dayton homes going down the road to oblivion. There was a house in Dayton View that a California friend of mine who's interested in relocation (to work in Kettering) checked on the other day. His realtor contact had lots of bad news-extensive vandalism damage inside the house that made even the super bargain price seem optimistic. I've already mentioned some of the formerly grand homes along N. Main well on their way to oblivion; if architecturally and historically significant homes are allowed to decay and face demolition, what hope do small cottages like the ones you shared, have? I think the answer is self-evident.
Preservation organizations do have "endangered" lists but there are of limited value when the problem of deterioration is systemic and widely spread geographically. One could even say this problem is regional as I've looked into preservation issues in Richmond, IN, Springfield, OH, Hamilton, OH, Cincinnati and Covington, KY. Some communities have created "enterprise" of TIF zones with tax incentives and abatements to encourage investment. Given that the tax revenue stream from these faded areas is already limited, (and, if allowed to become city-owned demolition cleared greenspaces, will eventually be zero) providing financial incentive with a goal of rehabilitation and revitalization makes sense. Paducah, KY tried a "dollar house" program with the ownership oriented towards artists and creative types to foster rehab over demolition. I'm not sure how successful it was but some historic homes are still standing and rehabbed that otherwise would be gone by now. Dayton might be able to reduce demolition costs (which never seems to be a budget problem for most communities-eliminating "eyesores" seems to be right up there with providing fresh water and fire protection in the city's list of priorities) with an incentive program to increase home ownership, especially for younger buyers who seldom have the financial resources older buyers have. Besides, the highly coveted "hipsters" (usually the under-40 crowd) who congregate in certain areas to create a colorful cultural scene (and sometimes spur residential values upward) are often subsistence musicians, artists, writers, semi-employed actors/dancers and other younger creative types without a lot of money. By the time the area is officially recognized as a hipster destination, the individuals who helped create it have often moved on to other digs as rising property values have priced them out of the area. In summary, I'm just sharing some ideas as you and others have. In summary, my spouse and I may or may not relocate to Dayton but my concern for preserving the architectural heritage and the things that make a community interesting are without geographical boundries. 25 years ago, we were ourselves urban pioneers but now risk being surrounded by new development. I suppose that's a good "problem" to have but our neighborhood was more interesting before the developers started moving dirt. Thanks again for allowing me to join the conversation, Dayton is a fascinating city which mirrors many of the changes older American cities are coping with. Given Dayton's legacy of inventiveness and practical problem solving, it will be interesting to see if novel solutions for the demolition problem can be formulated.
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Old 08-01-2014, 02:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintrest View Post
Thanks again for allowing me to join the conversation, Dayton is a fascinating city which mirrors many of the changes older American cities are coping with. Given Dayton's legacy of inventiveness and practical problem solving, it will be interesting to see if novel solutions for the demolition problem can be formulated.
Thank you for coming by and providing all this awesome information!

Your perspective is amazing.... definitely hoping you (and your friend from California) do decide to come out here. This city is in desperate need of individuals like yourselves.


As for the Dayton View house, that is a shame! It's amazing what even a few years of disrepair can do to a house. Bad owners, vacancy, the copper pipe stealing epidemic.... this town's houses have been hit hard. Hopefully that one won't have to bite the dust, but it sounds like most likely it will.
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Old 10-13-2014, 12:26 AM
 
Location: Springfield, Ohio
11,806 posts, read 9,749,941 times
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There's no article about it, because the local media isn't reporting it, but apparently there are plans by the new owner of the Springfield News-Sun building to demolish it and leave it as a parking lot (for who, I have no idea).
Right now, social media is waging a campaign against the idea, and there will be a vocal group against the idea at the city commission meeting Tuesday night:
https://www.facebook.com/savenewssun
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Old 10-13-2014, 01:51 AM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,021,606 times
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I wonder does anybody have any updates on that big hole in the ground on South Ludlow St. downtown? I drive by it on an almost daily basis. The big Steve Rauch sign has been ripped away, most of the construction equipment is gone, and the site is starting to get grown in by weeds.

Because I'm pretty sure Nan promised that Student Suites would have been built by now.
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Old 10-13-2014, 06:49 AM
 
1,328 posts, read 1,048,330 times
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http://www.city-data.com/forum/36306323-post598.html
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Old 10-13-2014, 01:00 PM
 
1,842 posts, read 1,379,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDriesenUD View Post
Looks like they are starting to run out of "Other People's Money."
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Old 10-13-2014, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Ohio
11,806 posts, read 9,749,941 times
Reputation: 10829
So a historic building has been demolished for....a big gaping hole downtown. Nice.
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