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Old 07-18-2015, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Covington, KY
1,898 posts, read 2,735,978 times
Reputation: 607

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Like other places, Dayton (both the city and the region) has its upstanding and genuinely law-abiding citizens who have absolutely no sense of social responsibility (social meaning sociological, not high society).

Now, sooner or later even the most independent of individuals senses he/she is not going to get along very well all by himself/herself. People live in group settings (town, clan, tribe, etc.) for just that reason. And, any such group thrives only when people contribute to a common cause -- the best example I can think of is a good public library, i.e., knowledge is freely available to anyone and to an extent people contribute what they can. There are many examples in life of such action -- a good road is another lesser one.

The Dayton area is rather fractured because the people are strong enough to be independent. They will join together when they must and not before. A city/townships merger is probably an idea to streamline and save county money as the more people there are outside of Dayton, the more demand there is for services from the county.

 

 
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Old 07-18-2015, 11:03 AM
 
1,328 posts, read 1,435,002 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
I had a great post typed up but my computer decided to hit me with one of those pop-up "restart the computer now" boxes and voila, my post was gone. So here's the short version.

1) Anyone who considers Cincy to be a success story clearly hasn't set foot in Price Hill or Westwood in the past thirty years. I have. People are leaving there faster than ever because of the lack of the city's investment in the neighborhoods. OTR and the Banks get all the headlines, but the neighborhoods are struggling, badly.

2) Austin Landing isn't perfect. But Austin Landing is one of the best things that could have happened to Dayton. It's provided some of the only new commercial construction that this area has seen. But-for this new construction, many companies, rather than continuing to stay downtown, may have just abandoned their Dayton operations altogether.

Yes, Austin Landing is eating downtown's lunch and Randy Gunlock is laughing all the way to the bank. But rather than hearing how the city wants to retain jobs, I hear more of the "woe is me" rhetoric from the city's political leaders followed by political or legislative attempts to make "urban sprawl" more difficult... or worse, "regionalism" which is just a byword for funneling suburban tax dollars back into the failed core city.
I don't agree at all with #2. There are no facts or anything that says any of those companies would have left downtown or Dayton at all if Austin Landing wasn't around. Austin Landing is going around, AND NOT TO JUST DOWNTOWN, and poaching companines and shops. It really is sad.
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Old 07-19-2015, 09:13 PM
 
31 posts, read 33,466 times
Reputation: 46
Well, the Dayton city folks are now commenting about how a city-county merger would reduce the proportion of African-American politicians:

City-county merger raises questions about black influence | www.mydaytondailynews.com
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Old 07-20-2015, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,827,948 times
Reputation: 2353
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDriesenUD View Post
I don't agree at all with #2. There are no facts or anything that says any of those companies would have left downtown or Dayton at all if Austin Landing wasn't around. Austin Landing is going around, AND NOT TO JUST DOWNTOWN, and poaching companines and shops. It really is sad.
I can only think of maybe one or two businesses (whose names I can't remember) that Austin Landing poached from the Dayton Mall area.

None from the Greene... or Fairfield Commons... or Pentagon Boulevard...

Really, Austin Landing is just the logical endgame of the city thinking that for 30 years they could stick it to those suburban workers who have no choice but to work downtown. Because those suburban workers have to pay city tax, but have no say in how city government is run. Well, they've voted with their feet. Expect some serious hell to pay if the city tries to stick its hands back into those suburban taxpayers' pockets.

Dayton City Hall is simply reaping what they have sewn.

***

I don't doubt that the end result of all this is ugly. When the metro area isn't growing, searching for office and retail tenants becomes a zero-sum game. Downtown Dayton is clearly the loser any time a business sets up shop at Austin Landing. But the common retort of "well, move back in the city if you want to have a say in city government and improve it" falls flat because people have already decided voting with their feet was easier.

And that's not an easy decision to make. Voting with your feet has significant costs - not only moving but the creation of new infrastructure at the edges of town. It tears up the social fabric of the neighborhoods as people leave, and reduces the social capital of the remaining residents. Voting with your feet is an "option of last resort" when you've determined there's nothing you can do to stop the insanity over at City Hall and would be better off just abandoning ship.
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Old 07-20-2015, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Covington, KY
1,898 posts, read 2,735,978 times
Reputation: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
I can only think of maybe one or two businesses (whose names I can't remember) that Austin Landing poached from the Dayton Mall area.

None from the Greene... or Fairfield Commons... or Pentagon Boulevard...

Really, Austin Landing is just the logical endgame of the city thinking that for 30 years they could stick it to those suburban workers who have no choice but to work downtown. Because those suburban workers have to pay city tax, but have no say in how city government is run. Well, they've voted with their feet. Expect some serious hell to pay if the city tries to stick its hands back into those suburban taxpayers' pockets.

Dayton City Hall is simply reaping what they have sewn.

***

I don't doubt that the end result of all this is ugly. When the metro area isn't growing, searching for office and retail tenants becomes a zero-sum game. Downtown Dayton is clearly the loser any time a business sets up shop at Austin Landing. But the common retort of "well, move back in the city if you want to have a say in city government and improve it" falls flat because people have already decided voting with their feet was easier.

And that's not an easy decision to make. Voting with your feet has significant costs - not only moving but the creation of new infrastructure at the edges of town. It tears up the social fabric of the neighborhoods as people leave, and reduces the social capital of the remaining residents. Voting with your feet is an "option of last resort" when you've determined there's nothing you can do to stop the insanity over at City Hall and would be better off just abandoning ship.
1. The city income tax has been in effect a lot longer than thirty years.

2. The creation of suburban cities was sparked by the likes of V.A. loans.

3. I highly recommend that anyone dissatisfied with the city income tax move out immediately as:

...a) It's not going to be eliminated with petty political agitation,
...b) There's nothing new about such action,
...c) One should not waste one's life with such agitation.

4. One might also read my post #91 at the top of this page and the thread titled Cincinnati V. Dayton.

Last edited by CarpathianPeasant; 07-20-2015 at 07:46 AM.. Reason: spacing
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Old 07-20-2015, 11:33 PM
 
Location: Five Oaks
430 posts, read 589,177 times
Reputation: 323
Have you seen the empty spaces at Fairfield? Dayton Mall poached Salem Mall. Dayton Mall was poached by Fairfield. Fairfield was poached by the Greene. The Greene is being poached by Austin Landing. And now Austin Landing is being poached by that Liberty Center place. That's how sprawl works
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Old 07-21-2015, 04:19 AM
 
127 posts, read 181,766 times
Reputation: 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amandarthegreat View Post
Have you seen the empty spaces at Fairfield? Dayton Mall poached Salem Mall. Dayton Mall was poached by Fairfield. Fairfield was poached by the Greene. The Greene is being poached by Austin Landing. And now Austin Landing is being poached by that Liberty Center place. That's how sprawl works
Which stores have left The Greene for Austin Landing? It seems like The Greene is doing pretty well, with the recent additions of the Apple store and Nordstrom Rack. Also, which stores have left Austin Landing for Liberty Center? There are plans for additional development at Austin Landing. I haven't heard of any stores planning to leave for Liberty Center yet.
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Old 07-21-2015, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,827,948 times
Reputation: 2353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amandarthegreat View Post
Have you seen the empty spaces at Fairfield? Dayton Mall poached Salem Mall. Dayton Mall was poached by Fairfield. Fairfield was poached by the Greene. The Greene is being poached by Austin Landing. And now Austin Landing is being poached by that Liberty Center place. That's how sprawl works
Correction - West Dayton's residents poached Salem Mall, with a generous assist from RTA.
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Old 07-21-2015, 04:48 PM
 
Location: Five Oaks
430 posts, read 589,177 times
Reputation: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarheel8406 View Post
Which stores have left The Greene for Austin Landing? It seems like The Greene is doing pretty well, with the recent additions of the Apple store and Nordstrom Rack. Also, which stores have left Austin Landing for Liberty Center? There are plans for additional development at Austin Landing. I haven't heard of any stores planning to leave for Liberty Center yet.
Just watch. It'll happen because that's the nature of the beast. Stores move to new locations for tax benefits. Once the abatement ends, they move elsewhere to run out another abatement. Walmart is notorious for doing this and Target is not far behind. The Greene is still shiny and new, give it time.
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Old 07-21-2015, 06:28 PM
 
127 posts, read 181,766 times
Reputation: 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amandarthegreat View Post
Just watch. It'll happen because that's the nature of the beast. Stores move to new locations for tax benefits. Once the abatement ends, they move elsewhere to run out another abatement. Walmart is notorious for doing this and Target is not far behind. The Greene is still shiny and new, give it time.
I guess time will tell, but I don't foresee stores leaving The Greene for Austin Landing. They serve two different markets (though there may be some overlap), with Austin Landing serving the Miami Township and Centerville areas, and The Greene serving Beavercreek. Stores did move from Fairfield Commons to The Greene, but that's because they mainly target the same geographical area.
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