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Old 02-27-2015, 05:39 PM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,023,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWOH View Post
You might have had me agreeing with parts of your argument if it weren't for the sensationalism. I bolded the areas that stuck out in particular.

Unfortunately it is attitudes exactly like yours that limit any progress or change from happening. The "us vs. them" - we are actually all in this together.

Most all of those suburbs wouldn't have a reason to exist if it weren't for Dayton itself. Think about that for a second. Their health is DIRECTLY tied to the health of the core. As it goes, so do its surroundings. It's not an "us vs. them".

The argument you could make against that point would be WPAFB. And you would be right, it is a major employment center with services and needs that almost make it function like its own city. So we are fortunate to have two major "centers of gravity" for our region. But keep in mind which one is bigger than the other, which one holds 90% of the jobs, which one we are known for.

We're in the Dayton region, not the WPAFB region. We all play on the same team. Let's start worrying less about what parts we do or don't like and more about the fact that any team is only as good as its weakest member.
I'm going to nitpick a little:

Downtown Dayton has approximately 23,000 employees (source: Downtown Dayton Partnership)
To compare, WPAFB has 26,000 employees (Source: WPAFB)

Ultimately, I'm calling into question Dayton's status as the anchor city or center of employment, especially if trends continue.

Downtown has a 35%+ vacancy rate, whereas I'm unaware of any significant vacancies on base (perhaps someone can fill me in?). A lot of people talk about the age of buildings making downtown unattractive... but there's plenty of old buildings on base, too. The key difference, really, is money. Most of the big companies (NCR, Reynolds and Reynolds, Mead, etc.) either left the city for the suburbs, left the whole region, or merged or went out of business altogether. The money is drying up because there's no manufacturing base anymore. You cant service your way to a healthy economy. You have to make something. There almost isn't the money around to have a hopping and vibrant city... most of the growth you see such as CareSource is just managing federal Medicaid dollars.

Contrast that with the base, which is being funded by the DoD... admittedly lots of it is deficit spending so there's probably ramifications later, but at least that's money from an outside source that's spent locally. If it weren't for the base, I doubt Beavercreek would have ever incorporated as a city. Fairborn would be a backwater town like Enon or Park Layne or New Carlisle. Centerville would have not seen the kind of growth it has, either. Likewise with Sugarcreek Township, and Bellbrook would look more like Spring Valley.

And I would argue that BRAC is coming again... and WPAFB stands to gain rather than lose from another round of that... they certainly gained last time, and the large number of acquisition people and headquarters and such there. If this base is closed, you might as well pack it up because there isn't a United States Air Force either, and the zombies are in the streets, and we've got worse problems than being RIF'd.

Even so, lots of people commute from Oakwood or Kettering or points south to WPAFB rather than downtown daily. Traffic patterns bear this out... the worst traffic on US 35 is actually eastbound between Keowee Street and 675 in the mornings, out of downtown, although it occasionally backs up in the afternoons as well.
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Old 02-27-2015, 06:13 PM
 
252 posts, read 247,257 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWOH View Post
You might have had me agreeing with parts of your argument if it weren't for the sensationalism. I bolded the areas that stuck out in particular.

Unfortunately it is attitudes exactly like yours that limit any progress or change from happening. The "us vs. them" - we are actually all in this together.

Most all of those suburbs wouldn't have a reason to exist if it weren't for Dayton itself. Think about that for a second. Their health is DIRECTLY tied to the health of the core. As it goes, so do its surroundings. It's not an "us vs. them".


The argument you could make against that point would be WPAFB. And you would be right, it is a major employment center with services and needs that almost make it function like its own city. So we are fortunate to have two major "centers of gravity" for our region. But keep in mind which one is bigger than the other, which one holds 90% of the jobs, which one we are known for.

We're in the Dayton region, not the WPAFB region. We all play on the same team. Let's start worrying less about what parts we do or don't like and more about the fact that any team is only as good as its weakest member.
I'm all for a strong and vibrant Dayton, and my attitude isn't so much "us versus them" as it is against big bureaucracies and loss of any input when you have to fight a very large city hall versus a smaller and more manageable one.

In the Columbus area, the modest income suburbs are Whitehall, Groveport, Reynoldsburg, Obetz, Urbancrest and Grove City. I live in Columbus across the street from Reynoldsburg: There streets were plowed, ours were surprisingly plowed for this storm, but usually not. Whitehall, for what it is (a blue collar suburb), has far better curb appeal than the surrounding portions of Columbus. Whitehall makes Target and Walmart use brick, Columbus lets developers put up any kind of crap they want. I like Columbus, but big organizations, whether it's big cities or big companies, simply can't be as responsive as a smaller, more manageable unit. (Urbancrest and Obetz are crap, but they have lower than average income populations.)

Bottom line is that there are certain things that you might be able to centralize, like water and sewer districts, but by and large smaller is better.
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Old 02-27-2015, 07:47 PM
 
1,007 posts, read 912,341 times
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Regionalism. Would the "regional dispatch center" qualify to be part of this thread? I find it interesting that WC and Centerville merged their calls, but not through RDC. Huber is also another holdout.
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Old 02-28-2015, 07:33 PM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,799,076 times
Reputation: 1813
Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
I'm going to nitpick a little:

Downtown Dayton has approximately 23,000 employees (source: Downtown Dayton Partnership)
To compare, WPAFB has 26,000 employees (Source: WPAFB)

Ultimately, I'm calling into question Dayton's status as the anchor city or center of employment, especially if trends continue.

Downtown has a 35%+ vacancy rate, whereas I'm unaware of any significant vacancies on base (perhaps someone can fill me in?). A lot of people talk about the age of buildings making downtown unattractive... but there's plenty of old buildings on base, too. The key difference, really, is money. Most of the big companies (NCR, Reynolds and Reynolds, Mead, etc.) either left the city for the suburbs, left the whole region, or merged or went out of business altogether. The money is drying up because there's no manufacturing base anymore. You cant service your way to a healthy economy. You have to make something. There almost isn't the money around to have a hopping and vibrant city... most of the growth you see such as CareSource is just managing federal Medicaid dollars.

Contrast that with the base, which is being funded by the DoD... admittedly lots of it is deficit spending so there's probably ramifications later, but at least that's money from an outside source that's spent locally. If it weren't for the base, I doubt Beavercreek would have ever incorporated as a city. Fairborn would be a backwater town like Enon or Park Layne or New Carlisle. Centerville would have not seen the kind of growth it has, either. Likewise with Sugarcreek Township, and Bellbrook would look more like Spring Valley.

And I would argue that BRAC is coming again... and WPAFB stands to gain rather than lose from another round of that... they certainly gained last time, and the large number of acquisition people and headquarters and such there. If this base is closed, you might as well pack it up because there isn't a United States Air Force either, and the zombies are in the streets, and we've got worse problems than being RIF'd.

Even so, lots of people commute from Oakwood or Kettering or points south to WPAFB rather than downtown daily. Traffic patterns bear this out... the worst traffic on US 35 is actually eastbound between Keowee Street and 675 in the mornings, out of downtown, although it occasionally backs up in the afternoons as well.
Thanks for the clarifications Hensleya1! Good to have the employment figures on each.


As for downtown being unattractive, that's a matter of perspective. Although I think there would be near universal agreement that blight, crime, and panhandling / any form of pedestrian harassment are very unattractive. And downtown Dayton has all of those, whereas the base area does not (although there is an occasional panhandler, crime, etc out there).

Central business districts across our nation face these exact same issues as downtown Dayton, and now many suburbs are too. What's important is to mitigate it - prevent swiss cheese holes of income inequality in our region (despite the fact they have already formed and are now well-established). So there's a big hill to climb. But I'm not sure if vacancies alone are the cause of blight - they lead to blight, but vacancies alone can look fine if well managed and concealed. That's the key.

One easy way to diminish the office vacancy rate that involves no funding would be reclassification and rezoning of properties targeted for residential conversions (like the City Centre building, the David building, etc.). Easy way to cheat.
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Old 03-01-2015, 04:35 PM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,799,076 times
Reputation: 1813
Quote:
Originally Posted by WheresTheBeef View Post
I'm all for a strong and vibrant Dayton, and my attitude isn't so much "us versus them" as it is against big bureaucracies and loss of any input when you have to fight a very large city hall versus a smaller and more manageable one.

In the Columbus area, the modest income suburbs are Whitehall, Groveport, Reynoldsburg, Obetz, Urbancrest and Grove City. I live in Columbus across the street from Reynoldsburg: There streets were plowed, ours were surprisingly plowed for this storm, but usually not. Whitehall, for what it is (a blue collar suburb), has far better curb appeal than the surrounding portions of Columbus. Whitehall makes Target and Walmart use brick, Columbus lets developers put up any kind of crap they want. I like Columbus, but big organizations, whether it's big cities or big companies, simply can't be as responsive as a smaller, more manageable unit. (Urbancrest and Obetz are crap, but they have lower than average income populations.)

Bottom line is that there are certain things that you might be able to centralize, like water and sewer districts, but by and large smaller is better.
WheresTheBeef, sorry about the late reply back to your post. I answered hensleya's, was going to answer yours too, and then... life happens haha.

Anyways, I see. I can understand not being a fan of big bureaucracies - I'm not either. I can also understand smaller city halls being more manageable and easier to deal with. This coming from someone who loved their experience attending grade/high school in a small district.

ID and others were kicking around the idea of decentralizing Dayton into many small units, like neighborhood governments. Upside is more efficient service, downside is you're killing the economies of scale and there would be a need for a lot more manpower since there would be process overlap.

Basically, do we want our civic service level to be equitable to a Dollar General or a Nordstrom's? Or somewhere in between?
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Old 03-02-2015, 10:05 PM
 
1,842 posts, read 1,381,236 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWOH View Post
ID and others were kicking around the idea of decentralizing Dayton into many small units, like neighborhood governments. Upside is more efficient service, downside is you're killing the economies of scale and there would be a need for a lot more manpower since there would be process overlap.
This is a good forum to just bounce around ideas and experiences. I'm glad that things are civil and there is no "us-vs-them" in the forum.

When I posted some ideas about some uses for the snaggletooth neighborhoods ( Dayton Demolition Thread ), my ideas were basically found to be crap based on reasoned arguments from others who had some specialized knowledge.

What are you thinking about when you say "economies of scale ?" My outside government looking in view is that they are isolated from the reality of what it's like to be a private citizen and mostly laser-focused on building their empire? Toward that end, there are lots of extra layers in a larger city government in the Police, Fire, Sanitation, Inspection, Finance, ... and so on that don't exist in Eaton, Lebanon, Piqua, et al.

I just want to know why we need to keep the existing political machine that doesn't appear to be very efficient and isn't responding to reality on the ground. Has there ever been any discussion on getting rid of the city income tax? That's a HUGE barrier to starting and expanding businesses in the city and finding employees. It seemed like a great idea to them when they had all those non-voting taxpayers when the city was a major source of employment.

Do they ever think or talk about the idea that every time they subsidize some sort of development to get some "private" thing started-up in downtown, that the money is coming from the struggling areas that are dying? Sometimes, things need a re-boot and not just a series of tweaks. There are huge portions of the city that will still be Dayton - even if they get spun-off ( to use a corporate term ).

As it is, the same bad brains are occupied with the problems of the more than 50 sq miles of the city. It seems to me that having places like West Dayton, Dayton View, East Dayton, and North Dayton might benefit from fresh brains. Sooner or later the gorgeous areas of Oregon, McPherson will succumb to the rot around them if they are forced to cough-up their resources to fund some politician's political agenda.

After the 'Demolition Thread' discussion, I can see many areas that are simply not going to make it. I hate to see them written-off, but they will one day be bare, undeveloped land that used to have families living there.

Breaking up the power in the center seems better to me than allowing the government spending vortex to suck in resources from further and further out as the regionalist proponents would have it.
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Old 03-03-2015, 09:09 PM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,799,076 times
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Great points ID! I'm on my iPhone so not a good format to go into much depth, but

Economies of scale - im basically thinking about this (as told by Esrati):

How many clerks do we need? – Esrati

In some cases consolidation works, in some it does not. Either way I agree it something we need to question, so we don't have some areas being written off for the benefit of others like you describe happening now in Dayton (and you are right as far as I can tell).
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Old 03-03-2015, 09:49 PM
 
1,842 posts, read 1,381,236 times
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Another example of why power needs to be removed and empires need to be broken up in city hall, IMO:

There is a block bounded by 1st, 2nd, McGee (*), and Jersey St. It's a couple of blocks E of Findlay St. All the original housing was probably ripped out so that a developer could go in there and put in a bunch of nasty, low income housing. No doubt, someone was being rewarded for a political gift. The money was probably federal, but it was still money that was, basically, stolen from someone so that someone else could arrage to pay the developer to build stuff there.

There are no trees, no nothing, just housing that will one day be far worse than anything that was there before.

Were the original houses substandard? Was there a need to replace them? Did the person in charge of making the "investment" ever risk their own money in an investment before in their life? Just like many other government spending adventures, the answer is No. No. and No.

When I was in high school decades ago, the idea that you could take perfectly good money and build stuff for people who have never owned property and just give it to them was proven to be a failed idea. If these homes are rentals, then there was no need to provide low income housing there since the original housing stock was undoubtedly already such.

ObTrivia:

The curving streets of Philadelphia and Elkton nearby the block mentioned above cover up what was once supply water for factories downhill. These canals were not part of the Miami-Erie canal, but the remnant buildings can be found all the way past 5th-3rd field near Monument and Webster. There is a building oriented at a severe angle to the regular grid between Webster and Taylor just S of Monument that was once oriented right in the same direction as the old old canal. ( At least it's still there on the satellite view. ) It won't be here much longer, I'll bet.

From Philadelphia, Spring Street and even 2nd st covers up the old old canal's path. I wish I had access to satellite views back when I was a kid because I would have been all over that. There was probably much more to see back then that is now just vacant lots. On the satellite view, these old canal tracks stick out like a sore thumb. In another 50 or so years, this stuff will be un-traceable. This land will probably all be vacant. From the ground, these paths look like any old alley. There are a few glorious old houses that have no doubt stood where they are for, at least 150 years that can easily be seen to have been aligned to the old canal. Some others are either crumbling or have been razed.

The old RR track paths are fading even faster.

(*) I liked it better when we didn't have to name streets using every part of someone's name. We didn't name our streets Gen. George H. Washington, Sr. or Abraham S. Lincoln esq. We simply used the last name and that was good enough. Now, on the other side of town, what should be simply McGee Blvd and Moses Blvd are far longer than they need to be just like the streets with multi-part names that are in every big city in the US ( that I don't need to name ).

( BTW, there is no "H" or "S" or 'Sr" or "esq" above. I was just using artistic license. )

Last edited by IDtheftV; 03-03-2015 at 10:16 PM..
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Old 03-04-2015, 03:21 PM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,799,076 times
Reputation: 1813
Quote:
Originally Posted by IDtheftV View Post
ObTrivia:

The curving streets of Philadelphia and Elkton nearby the block mentioned above cover up what was once supply water for factories downhill. These canals were not part of the Miami-Erie canal, but the remnant buildings can be found all the way past 5th-3rd field near Monument and Webster. There is a building oriented at a severe angle to the regular grid between Webster and Taylor just S of Monument that was once oriented right in the same direction as the old old canal. ( At least it's still there on the satellite view. ) It won't be here much longer, I'll bet.

From Philadelphia, Spring Street and even 2nd st covers up the old old canal's path. I wish I had access to satellite views back when I was a kid because I would have been all over that. There was probably much more to see back then that is now just vacant lots. On the satellite view, these old canal tracks stick out like a sore thumb. In another 50 or so years, this stuff will be un-traceable. This land will probably all be vacant. From the ground, these paths look like any old alley. There are a few glorious old houses that have no doubt stood where they are for, at least 150 years that can easily be seen to have been aligned to the old canal. Some others are either crumbling or have been razed.

The old RR track paths are fading even faster.
I don't mean to throw this thread off track, but your trivia is fascinating, I had no clue there were canals in those places! Thanks for the intel ID. Once I'm free of my commitments I'll be giving those areas a very careful look haha.
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Old 03-04-2015, 05:11 PM
 
1,842 posts, read 1,381,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWOH View Post
I don't mean to throw this thread off track, but your trivia is fascinating, I had no clue there were canals in those places! Thanks for the intel ID. Once I'm free of my commitments I'll be giving those areas a very careful look haha.
It's kinda off-track, but the canals went through the whole region, so it's regional.

I looked up the curving streets on the old maps from the 1800s and there they are.

Many towns have preserved a lock or two along the old canal's path.
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