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Old 07-12-2015, 01:02 PM
 
3,513 posts, read 4,830,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
This is even more confusing.

If 1) the city isn't trying to annex the townships

2) the townships will thus still govern themselves

what exactly is being merged? Just the city and the county?

How exactly could the city claim that it was a larger entity then?

It sounds like it's time for Miami Township and the other outlying townships to incorporate as discrete entities so Dayton has a harder time trying to reach their hands into suburban taxpayers' pockets. Pre-empt the county commissioners' and City Hall's attempt to get their hands on more money without addressing their more fundamental problems.
Yes, I'm fairly certain all they are going for is a city/county merger.
This would combine overlapping services and government so Montgomery Co. would act as Dayton and vice-versa.
I think the city could claim it was a larger entity because any jurisdiction not currently within other cities would be considered "Dayton".

Indianapolis calls its consolidation between City and County "Unigov".
Here's some info on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unigov

Within the Unigov jurisdiction are separate cities that maintain autonomy for certain services, most importantly IMO schooling, road maintenance and policing.
But these cities would still be represented on the city council.


So for Dayton, it makes a good amount of sense to me.
Centerville, Kettering, Vandalia, etc. would not change.
The only difference would be that they would have a say in city politics.
A stronger county would be created that is essentially the city too.
Neighborhoods within Dayton could start to represent themselves, or combine representation.
DPS could be factioned into a larger number of smaller districts, those of which could combine with other suburban districts if they chose to do so.

IMO it's a win-win if done right.
It forces the suburbs to pay more attention to Dayton and have a shared resource mindset while not changing their actual status as an autonomous city.
It allows the region to gain influence by being a larger city
It gives Daytonians the flexibility to break up the poorer performing institutions which the city has come to rely on into what may be better performing institutions to stop out migration.
If done well, a lot of money can be saved through consolidation of services.



Anyways, from what I've read that's now I see it. Hoping there will at least be some good discussions and debates about a city-county merger in the region.
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Old 07-12-2015, 01:03 PM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
4,244 posts, read 6,849,781 times
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Heres the Dayton Most Metro blurb on it
http://www.city-data.com/forum/dayto...onalism-6.html


And the "official" website:
Home - Dayton Together
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Old 07-12-2015, 01:11 PM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
4,244 posts, read 6,849,781 times
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Quote:

It sounds like it's time for Miami Township and the other outlying townships
to incorporate as discrete entities so Dayton has a harder time trying to reach
their hands into suburban taxpayers' pockets. Pre-empt the county commissioners'
and City Hall's attempt to get their hands on more money without addressing
their more fundamental problems.

This was the historical driver for incorporations in the past.

Postwar Era: Kettering started as an effort by the Southern Hills area to avoid annexation. Their consultant proposed to no incorporate Southern Hills, but ALL of Van Buren Township. This almost didn't happen as there was referenda to limit this as some farmers in the more rural parts of Van Buren opposed incorporpation, as did Moraine City, which by then was already a small suburban community. The only referenda that succeeded was Moraine City, which voted to be its own city and not part of the new Kettering.

But this Van Buren Twp ---> Kettering thing set the local precedent for the incorporation of townships as cities (but notably not keeping the township name).

1970s: Next, in the 1970s, Dayton again was starting an annexation push. This led to the incorporation of Wayne Township as Huber Heights (and which is why you see the Dayton City Limits snaking up along Valley Street into Huber)

1990s: Dayton again was making annexation plans, and this led to the consolidation of Mad River Township into Riverside (which was originally a small incorporated village off Springfield Street...the old 19th century Harshmanville)
Also, Madison Twp incorporated with Trotwood to avoid annexation by Dayton during this same period.
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Old 07-12-2015, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Portsmouth, VA
6,513 posts, read 7,825,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Sux View Post
Depend on how you look at it...there are positive signs in the center city (tho not necessarily in downtown proper), but the outer neighborhoods are in decline....and the older suburban areas are sort of stagnant. Growth in the metro area has petty much moved to Warren, Greene, and Miami Counties....as well as the southern fringes of Montgomery County (Miami and Washington Twps are pretty solid growth areas still).

@@@


The in-depth article has some good quotes from David Rusk, an urban policy expert (and former mayor of Albuquerque) that questions this and points out how the situation with Louisville is different.

I think the thing they are borrowing from Louisville was expempting incorporated suburban areas. But I read they are also exempting townships. Township government was not an issue in Louisville because Kentucky counties don't have townships (they make up for this, sort of, by having smaller counties).

One thing Louisville did do was take an "all in" approach to the new metro council (which replaced the city board of alderman and the county commission).

Even though a sizable portion of Jefferson County was already in incorporated suburbs this area was divided up---like the rest of the county---into metro council districts and the people living in these suburbs got to vote for a metro councilmember. There was no at-large elections or proportional representation...the one district voted for its own councilmember. This drastically improved representation for the people in the county since there were only three county commissioners.

I'd probably support this new merger plan if they had the same kind of "all in" approach and structure this similar to Louisville with voting districts and representation.
I see what you're saying. I'm always skeptical of these arrangements because they aren't a solution in and of themselves, they're just a platform to help kick start progress. It could work. But municipalities can't lose sight of the bigger picture, which is growth.

The areas you mentioned were doing well when I lived there 15 years ago. So the question becomes, is this a way for them to grow, or does this force them to support the areas that aren't, so everyone can maintain? When you're doing well you're not as interested in helping someone else as you are when you need help.
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Old 07-12-2015, 01:27 PM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
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Quote:
So the question becomes, is this a way for them to grow, or does this force them
to support the areas that aren't, so everyone can maintain?
In a sense this does make Dayton's urban woes a county problem, but they already are.

I don't see this as a bail-out per-se, but if done they way they did it in Louisville, as I explained upthread, it will make policy solutions (and the means to pay for them) the responsibility of the county voters, since the bulk of the population (and, presumably, the majority of the new metro council districts) will be in suburban districts.

The thing to beware of ...a red flag....is if there are some sort of schemes floated to minimize suburban influence or otherwisde maximize city representation on a new county council. If that is the case it will be a Dayton Bailout plan vs true countywide governance.

Last edited by Dayton Sux; 07-12-2015 at 02:11 PM..
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Old 07-12-2015, 02:10 PM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
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Like the rest of you I think this is a dead duck, but the politics will be interesting.

The way it went down in Louisville is that the merger was pushed by the business/professional community and the more business-oriented "yuppy" Democrats, and...I think...by the local GOP. The GOP realized they would be much more competitive, politically, in a merged government.

The opposition mostly came from the former city. The minorities (in this case blacks and gays) and liberals and the unions (fire, police, etc) opposed it for various reasons, but the big reason would be loss of power and dilution of a voting bloc that had a lot of influence in the old board of aldermen (in fact the leader of the opposition was a lesbian alderwoman from one of the more Yellow-Springsy Louisville neightorhoods). The left/liberals and progressives preferred the hollow prize of possible control of a declining City of Louisville, versus diminished power in a merged metro council.

So, when all was said and done, the minorities and liberals did see reduced representation but the GOP didn't take over the council, because Louisville, unlike Dayton, still has a lot of suburban blue collar and middle class Democrats. These voterssplit their ticket and might vote for Mitch McConnell for Senate (incidentally Mitch used to be the head of the Jefferson County commission) but vote for a Dem for their local county council member.

The GOP probably does stand a chance electing a mayor of Metro Louisville someday, but the Dems were lucky and had two strong candidates as the first two Metro mayors....Jerry Abramson (now Lt Governor) and now Craig Fisher, who came from the business community.


@@@

The way this would shake out in Dayton is that since the GOP is so strong here out in suburbia, they probably have political control of a merged county council and elect the mayor. Something to think about.

If the Louisville pattern holds true you will see as much or even more opposition in the city as you will out here in the suburbs.

Last edited by Dayton Sux; 07-12-2015 at 02:25 PM..
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Old 07-12-2015, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Portsmouth, VA
6,513 posts, read 7,825,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Sux View Post
Like the rest of you I think this is a dead duck, but the politics will be interesting.

The way it went down in Louisville is that the merger was pushed by the business/professional community and the more business-oriented "yuppy" Democrats, and...I think...by the local GOP. The GOP realized they would be much more competitive, politically, in a merged government.

The opposition mostly came from the former city. The minorities (in this case blacks and gays) and liberals and the unions (fire, police, etc) opposed it for various reasons, but the big reason would be loss of power and dilution of a voting bloc that had a lot of influence in the old board of aldermen (in fact the leader of the opposition was a lesbian alderwoman from one of the more Yellow-Springsy Louisville neightorhoods). The left/liberals and progressives preferred the hollow prize of possible control of a declining City of Louisville, versus diminished power in a merged metro council.

So, when all was said and done, the minorities and liberals did see reduced representation but the GOP didn't take over the council, because Louisville, unlike Dayton, still has a lot of suburban blue collar and middle class Democrats. These voterssplit their ticket and might vote for Mitch McConnell for Senate (incidentally Mitch used to be the head of the Jefferson County commission) but vote for a Dem for their local county council member.

The GOP probably does stand a chance electing a mayor of Metro Louisville someday, but the Dems were lucky and had two strong candidates as the first two Metro mayors....Jerry Abramson (now Lt Governor) and now Craig Fisher, who came from the business community.


@@@

The way this would shake out in Dayton is that since the GOP is so strong here out in suburbia, they probably have political control of a merged county council and elect the mayor. Something to think about.

If the Louisville pattern holds true you will see as much or even more opposition in the city as you will out here in the suburbs.
This reminds me of Detroit. They need to shrink the city. They need to sell off assets. The liberals won't do it because they hate the idea of a smaller city. They like the leverage of a big city. Conservatives want a smaller, efficient, city. I say break up the city and allow the suburbs to take on the neighboring areas, or create an inner ring of suburbs. Downtown Detroit is the primary functioning area anyway. Allow privatization, for those companies that are interested. They'll never do it though.
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Old 07-12-2015, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,644,899 times
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The long and short of it is while I can see the benefits of a countywide merger, it would have to be to the exclusion of the core city. The cost of remedying the decaying core is simply too great for any one outlying suburb to have to bear... or all of them, for that matter.

Any merger that includes Dayton in it would invariably include some sort of "Dayton Bailout", either directly via a unified income tax, or indirectly via a concentration of countywide investment in the city.

And if it were to include all unincorporated areas, expect us to see all them incorporate as municipalities to avoid taxation and said money being sent to subsidize Nan's ambitions.
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Old 07-12-2015, 10:42 PM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,644,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Sux View Post
This was the historical driver for incorporations in the past.

Postwar Era: Kettering started as an effort by the Southern Hills area to avoid annexation. Their consultant proposed to no incorporate Southern Hills, but ALL of Van Buren Township. This almost didn't happen as there was referenda to limit this as some farmers in the more rural parts of Van Buren opposed incorporpation, as did Moraine City, which by then was already a small suburban community. The only referenda that succeeded was Moraine City, which voted to be its own city and not part of the new Kettering.

But this Van Buren Twp ---> Kettering thing set the local precedent for the incorporation of townships as cities (but notably not keeping the township name).

1970s: Next, in the 1970s, Dayton again was starting an annexation push. This led to the incorporation of Wayne Township as Huber Heights (and which is why you see the Dayton City Limits snaking up along Valley Street into Huber)

1990s: Dayton again was making annexation plans, and this led to the consolidation of Mad River Township into Riverside (which was originally a small incorporated village off Springfield Street...the old 19th century Harshmanville)
Also, Madison Twp incorporated with Trotwood to avoid annexation by Dayton during this same period.
2010s: Dayton again makes annexation plans, and this led to the creation of new cities in what remained of the townships.
Farmersville grows significantly as it absorbs all of Jackson Township.... ditto Germantown for German Township.
Drexel incorporates as a discrete entity rather than merely a CDP... for Jefferson Township?

And on and on and on
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:09 PM
 
30 posts, read 29,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
2010s: Dayton again makes annexation plans, and this led to the creation of new cities in what remained of the townships.
Farmersville grows significantly as it absorbs all of Jackson Township.... ditto Germantown for German Township.
Drexel incorporates as a discrete entity rather than merely a CDP... for Jefferson Township?

And on and on and on
1) From what I understand, much of Drexel and Jefferson Township is such a dump anyway ... why would any sane person want to selectively annex it except as part of an "annex all" plan?

2) I'd be more likely to see Butler Township becoming Butler Town (or less likely, merging with Vandalia) to avoid annexation by Dayton and Union than Drexel incorporating. I really don't know whether people in Jefferson Township would care enough to actually resist this move. Also, seriously, I don't see school quality being that different.

Interestingly, Nan Whaley claims to not to have been notified about this ...
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