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Old 10-17-2013, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Dayton, OH
1,486 posts, read 901,828 times
Reputation: 1492
I should expand a bit on security, though - security alone won't get the job done. Salem Mall security worked hand in hand with Trotwood police and it simply wasn't enough to counteract the sheer amount of gangbangers and riff raff that came in via RTA (although nobody here wants to admit it). Trying to stop the flow of riff raff is like trying to swim upstream, especially once the rentacops start getting shot.

Security is just a band aid solution, and cutting off RTA service to the mall wouldn't be a permanent fix either (it may save the mall but will do nothing for the community). Work has to be done in the community to change people's attitudes and outlooks - and the "riff raff" problem will solve itself when most of those gangbangers are working decent jobs instead of having nothing to do and causing trouble at the bus stops.
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Old 10-17-2013, 05:34 PM
Status: "Will OSU disown me if I move to Madison?" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: (Greene)est County in Ohio
1,344 posts, read 2,277,456 times
Reputation: 540
People, people. The reason why the Salem Mall failed was due to a confluence of factors. And while RTA riding availability at the mall was one of them, I highly doubt it even makes the top three. 1) Demographic shifts, a.k.a. White Flight. And no, "Well, RTA riders pushed people out." No, it was desegregation practices, such as forced busing. 2) Age of the mall / management. Most mall owners either keep the place up or let it go (and then sell to a tier-two, class B management company that cares even less). If it isn't kept up or re-branded, it will ultimately fade. 3) I-675. 'nough said.

At the risk of sounding like an outsider from the community, Dayton metro residents, grow a backbone!

So, to recap, Salem Mall went down because of wealthy people moving away, bad management or repositioning, and I-675 and its ensuing development.
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Old 10-18-2013, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Far from where I'd like to be
24,243 posts, read 28,517,854 times
Reputation: 34921
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrightflyer View Post
3) I-675. 'nough said.
Exactly.
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Old 10-18-2013, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Dayton, OH
1,486 posts, read 901,828 times
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Well, going down that road, if the Trotwood connector were upgraded to Interstate standards - probably bypassing the Salem Mall area - would that spur development and growth near the highway exits as it becomes a viable downtown bypass for thru traffic that no longer has to go from I-70 to I-75 through downtown?

Remember, that while some of the most vocal opponents of I-675 came from Dayton itself - notably mayor James McGee - because they knew the development would leave the city. They never bothered to find out why developers wanted to build outside the city limits, and they obviously never even attempted to address those reasons. It's a big shortcoming of anybody who advocates urban redevelopment, they fail to understand why people left the city in the first place and instead settle for fighting suburban development (in the case of I-675, it wound up in federal court, delaying the project for several years).

Citizen's Committee Against Interstate Route 675 v. Lewis, 542 F. Supp. 496 (S.D. Ohio 1982)

Of course, they lost, the road was built anyway, and Beavercreek sees double digit growth while Dayton sees double digit losses.

It's the same people, in the same area, choosing to locate in one jurisdiction over another - and nobody's interested in addressing why.
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Old 10-18-2013, 11:42 AM
Status: "Will OSU disown me if I move to Madison?" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: (Greene)est County in Ohio
1,344 posts, read 2,277,456 times
Reputation: 540
I thought my first point addressed the why pretty well.

Like everything, Washington dictates policy without concern for what is actually happening outside the beltway.
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Old 10-18-2013, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Dayton, OH
1,486 posts, read 901,828 times
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While I agree that forced busing killed the city of Dayton and accelerated white flight like no other (and given the generally abysmal state of Dayton Public, white flight continues to this day), I don't think forced busing has any direct link to the death of the Salem Mall. Just because white people left the city proper doesn't mean they would be unwilling to drive a few extra miles. If the mall itself is appealing enough, distance becomes a relatively minor issue.

I live downtown, and it places the Dayton Mall, the Greene, Fairfield Commons, and the former Salem Mall area roughly equidistant from each other. I choose where I go based on (1) if they have the store I'm looking for, (2) what the weather is like in the case of the Greene, and (3) general feel of the area.

#3 almost always takes the Dayton Mall out of the running, and this time of year starts to take the Greene out of the equation, too.



I would highly recommend you read the case I linked you to - the Secretary of Transportation deferred to the governor of Ohio whether to withdraw the proposed I-675, so while Washington does dictate policy with nary a care about what goes on outside the Beltway all the time, in this individual case it was up to the state who went ahead with it anyway.

And thank heavens it did - imagine how bad traffic would be on US 35 if I-675 was only extended that far and didn't touch Centerville or Sugarcreek township.
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Old 10-18-2013, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Covington, KY
1,159 posts, read 745,759 times
Reputation: 353
Let's consider the possibility that the day of the personal automobile (at least as it has been) is coming to a close. There are various reasons to consider this like:

1. Fuel concerns.

2. The time needed to, say, get from home to work.

3. The slowly growing list of legalisms involved in maintaining a car.

4. Changing employment conditions brought on by technology.

While new highways may re-direct some traffic, that sure isn't everyone.

Admittedly people still try to live the automobile age, and some will continue to do so; but, I don't think it will last much longer. Fifty years ago an acquaintance came by proudly announcing she had driven to California and back in two weeks' time. Today, if someone wants to go to California he/she will likely take a plane -- it was quite possible then, too, but it wasn't common then.

If someone can buy furniture, do their banking and even pick out wedding rings at a Kroger superstore (Marketplace) or food, clothes and a computer at a WalMart, what is the need to go trekking through a Mall?
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:27 PM
 
1,275 posts, read 541,275 times
Reputation: 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpathianPeasant View Post
If someone can buy furniture, do their banking and even pick out wedding rings at a Kroger superstore (Marketplace) or food, clothes and a computer at a WalMart, what is the need to go trekking through a Mall?
Agreed. Maybe they won't be buying a wedding ring or picking out furniture from Kroger per se, but there are a lot more convenient alternatives to a traditional mall. Online shopping in particular.

The 1960's infrastructure revolution (aka Interstates being built) led to a lot of change in how society perceived it could function - but it was delayed. The malls only started to crop up about 10-15 years after the highways were built, for instance.

Online has basically been the second infrastructure revolution. Why drive to a meeting when you can Skype in? Same holds true for shopping - why go to the store when you can just go online?

There is still a demand for going to malls, yes, but now it's about the experience rather than the items. If the experience is a feeling like you are going to get mugged, then you will go somewhere else haha. That, and bad branding / ineffective management and maintenance did not help Salem Mall's case either.
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:44 PM
 
1,275 posts, read 541,275 times
Reputation: 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
While I agree that forced busing killed the city of Dayton and accelerated white flight like no other (and given the generally abysmal state of Dayton Public, white flight continues to this day), I don't think forced busing has any direct link to the death of the Salem Mall. Just because white people left the city proper doesn't mean they would be unwilling to drive a few extra miles. If the mall itself is appealing enough, distance becomes a relatively minor issue.

I live downtown, and it places the Dayton Mall, the Greene, Fairfield Commons, and the former Salem Mall area roughly equidistant from each other. I choose where I go based on (1) if they have the store I'm looking for, (2) what the weather is like in the case of the Greene, and (3) general feel of the area.

#3 almost always takes the Dayton Mall out of the running, and this time of year starts to take the Greene out of the equation, too.
The bolded statement is particularly interesting to me.

Stores locate in areas primarily for demographic reasons - I've seen plenty of stores move to less desirable location from a site selection perspective simply because the demographics work out better (Kroger moving to Northwoods Blvd. in Vandalia instead of renovating their US 40 location to better access the Tipp City crowd, for instance).

That's why it seems to me like it would be very hard for a mall located in a demographically poor area to still obtain more desirable stores. Unless maybe the mall was in a poor area directly adjacent to an extremely affluent area?
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Old 10-20-2013, 08:54 AM
Status: "Will OSU disown me if I move to Madison?" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: (Greene)est County in Ohio
1,344 posts, read 2,277,456 times
Reputation: 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHKID View Post
That's why it seems to me like it would be very hard for a mall located in a demographically poor area to still obtain more desirable stores. Unless maybe the mall was in a poor area directly adjacent to an extremely affluent area?
I got this feeling a little with the commerical spaces around ABQ Uptown when I was in Albuquerque. While not nearly as downtrodden as parts of West Dayton, it was surrounded by areas that were on par with parts of Riverside or Huber Heights. Yet, this shopping center, which is surrounded by two other super-regional malls, making it the largest concentration of retail in New Mexico, is like a Greene caliber center (minus a major anchor like Von Maur.

Part of the success is, as OHKID alluded to, the fact that a mile or two outside the center are a number of high-wealth areas.

Of course, like any situation, it comes to a point that apples are being compared to oranges in metros, but I think ABQ works well due to its layout and similar metro size to Dayton. It varies however, in that it is the only major metro in a 400-500 mile radius. Dayton is terribly close to Cincinnati, Columbus and even Indy. Thus, there will be some stores that may pick ABQ over a metro like Dayton because of a lack of nearby competing metros. Also, industries between Ohio and NM are vastly different in certain areas.
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