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Old 07-09-2014, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Covington, KY
1,879 posts, read 2,127,568 times
Reputation: 595

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
I should probably rephrase - there are several single women in their 20's in any church. But if they're still single past the age of 21, they have taken Proverbs 31 a little too far (where it says "above all else guard your heart") - and have just become downright unfriendly towards men. I would say it was imputed to me personally, but when I asked the other single guys they ran into the same thing.

The majority of married couples I've run into in their early 20's never dated from within their own church - although they became plugged into the community, they always found their husbands or wives outside that church. I just started dating someone and guess what.... nope, she doesn't go to my church.

***

Since we're squirrel-chasing, I'll try to bring us back to whether Dayton is an "Affordable" region or not. One thing to note.... the tax burden is pretty high as a percentage of the property's value. That's been brought up in this thread before. That's because the tax base is poor, and there's still needs to be a certain minimum level of government services regardless where in the country you go.

One thing to consider though: a $3,000 property tax bill here is going to be far more burdensome than a $5,000 property tax bill in a more successful city - because the wages in many cases are far lower here. It's going to discourage home ownership - because with the lack of appreciation in values home ownership becomes a liability rather than an asset.

An interplay of retired folks who can baby sit the divorced woman's kids while she goes to work plus supervise the kid mowing the lawn should be a sizable asset to any community, so I would guess the point may not exactly be "squirrel-chasing." so let me add:

 
When you've tossed in 25 years of membership, come armed with a letter of authorization signed by the office of an Archbishop headed for a Cardinal's hat (quietly backed by a university vice-president) and guarantee any financial outlay, one would think there would be some effort.

 

And, I copied a Protestant group ... Christian ... out in the vicinity a little beyond Trotwood.


 
Priestly ambition exists, and if the Church is doing marriage these days fifty percent of the population is odd balls ... especially if one upsets big political agitators ... Good God! All in the same neighborhood ... cute little church once claiming everything along North Main from the river to Hillcrest Avenue and the deanery office ... located in Five Oaks....

 

(Wise people hang onto that notion of non-partisan government.)
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Old 07-09-2014, 07:18 PM
 
6,845 posts, read 4,439,184 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHKID View Post
Thanks for bringing it back on topic!

I can assure you Dayton is more affordable than 95% of this nation'a metropolitan areas. Here's how:

- Dirt cheap housing prices. All over the metro.
- low utility prices
- Low grocery prices (thank Kroger)
- Low gas prices
- 1-day drive or 90 min flight to 60% of the US population
- Short commuting times
- Dirt cheap commercial real estate


And with taxes, just like anything in life, you get what you pay for. You want an aestheticslly nice city like Mason, Yellow Springs, Kettering or Oakwood? Those come with higher taxes. If you don't, Fairfield, Beavercreek, Farmersville, or Harrison Twp have low taxes. So to each their own, but I'm willing to pay higher taxes for increased city services. Others disagree. I see it as a matter of personal preference.
"Dirt cheap housing prices" are deceptive, because of lack of appreciation. I'd rather pay $1M in San Francisco for a house that's $100K in Dayton, if 15 years later the SF house is $2M, but the Dayton house is still $100K. To me, the opportunity-cost of unrealized appreciation is a huge strike against "affordability".

It's true that there's some proportionality between taxes and services, but it's a tenuous relationship at best. Many rural townships still have school district tax, and property tax remains high as a percentage of house value, for reasons that Hensleya1 eloquently pointed out.

Affordability is subjective, and depends strongly on one's individual case. If you're earning $40K/year, Dayton is one of the few regions where you might afford a reasonable single-family house. That makes is affordable. If you're a $400K/year orthodontist, Seattle or Miami will be vastly more "affordable".
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:08 PM
 
13,726 posts, read 25,344,132 times
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The prospect of taking a job in Springfield got me on craigslist and I found that getting something to rent is low compared to where I am (Texas City, Texas) and people would find it "affordable" here. It's all a matter of perspective.

I've found Houston has gotten expensive very quickly and it's a bubble. Places where few wanted to live four years ago for $600/mo now have new developments asking for more than double that on average. No improvements to the surroundings or anything, just people are piling in from everywhere, including places like California where they are overpaying for property. This isn't really happening in Ohio.
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Old 07-10-2014, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Covington, KY
1,879 posts, read 2,127,568 times
Reputation: 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post
"Dirt cheap housing prices" are deceptive, because of lack of appreciation. I'd rather pay $1M in San Francisco for a house that's $100K in Dayton, if 15 years later the SF house is $2M, but the Dayton house is still $100K. To me, the opportunity-cost of unrealized appreciation is a huge strike against "affordability".

It's true that there's some proportionality between taxes and services, but it's a tenuous relationship at best. Many rural townships still have school district tax, and property tax remains high as a percentage of house value, for reasons that Hensleya1 eloquently pointed out.

Affordability is subjective, and depends strongly on one's individual case. If you're earning $40K/year, Dayton is one of the few regions where you might afford a reasonable single-family house. That makes is affordable. If you're a $400K/year orthodontist, Seattle or Miami will be vastly more "affordable".
Almost everything is subjective. ...And also subject to change. "Trends" may be and indication of something, but not necessarily the direction everyone and everything is going.

If I were a $400K/year orthodontist or anything else I would scrap any notions of Miami immediately simply because I wouldn't be able to stand the climate. As for Seattle, my first thought would be the necessary adjustments. Move fifty miles away and you need to adjust.
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Old 07-10-2014, 07:05 PM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,794,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post
"Dirt cheap housing prices" are deceptive, because of lack of appreciation. I'd rather pay $1M in San Francisco for a house that's $100K in Dayton, if 15 years later the SF house is $2M, but the Dayton house is still $100K. To me, the opportunity-cost of unrealized appreciation is a huge strike against "affordability".

It's true that there's some proportionality between taxes and services, but it's a tenuous relationship at best. Many rural townships still have school district tax, and property tax remains high as a percentage of house value, for reasons that Hensleya1 eloquently pointed out.

Affordability is subjective, and depends strongly on one's individual case. If you're earning $40K/year, Dayton is one of the few regions where you might afford a reasonable single-family house. That makes is affordable. If you're a $400K/year orthodontist, Seattle or Miami will be vastly more "affordable".
Good points.

The prospect of a higher ROI in another metro is very true. As is the additional fact that the number of people searching for $2mil houses in Dayton is microscopic, which would make reselling a $2mil house very hard. Heck, there's a $2mil house a mile or two from my parents' that has had a hard time selling just because the market for it does not exist.


But I will say that lower housing prices still means you get more house for your money and your risk in the investment is lower. So when people in California were losing $300k in value on a $500k house, Daytonians were losing a mere fraction of that value, despite the effect of the recession was roughly equitable. Granted, that also means our housing values will probably never appreciate to those levels.

My perspective comes from the vantage point of a college student. I realize few people who leave a four-year college make above $40k in their first job anymore. Many of these people probably won't see their lifetime income increase above this general level once inflation is factored into the equation. In public school, I had mid-career teachers who weren't making $40k. These were individuals with master's degrees. And I know plenty of people whom I graduated HS with that may have to work their entire life to see an $18/hr income.

This is the reality many don't understand. We are getting poorer. Technology is enabling us to live with less money, but with that the material standard of living will decrease. That's why I'm scrambling to get an engineering degree, and even then there's no guarantee that I will be able to maintain the same standard of living as my parents, or my friend's parents. That's why we are fortunate to have a low cost of living in Dayton. I can at least make a good living here. I could not say the same in NYC.
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Old 07-12-2014, 04:40 AM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
4,245 posts, read 5,763,631 times
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Another indication of the impact of low housing costs is this DBJ article on one ofthose “best cities for…” lists, this time from a website called“NerdWallet”.

http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/blog/morning_call/2014/07/dayton-named-a-top-destination-in-america-for-stem.html

And the websitearticle, which has more detail than the DBJ article

http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/cities/economics/best-places-stem-graduates/

The cheap housing costs vis a vis other metro areas on this list put Dayton in the top10, though it ranks 3rd from the bottom both in STEM employment andi n pay, for the 20 metro areas they looked at (the other Ohio city on the listis Columbus). I think Dayton is actually below the national average for pay for STEM jobs. Not sure where that 6.78% share of employment is at vs a nationalaverage for metro areas.

So...if you can find a job in this field (and even accounting for the lower pay vis a vis the national average), maybe not a bad deal to live here?



@@@

A sidebar onSTEM employment and economic impact in Dayton:


There are different ways to measure the impact of STEM-related work. The Milliken Institute uses a metro area GDPmeasure (STEM sector contribution to the metro GDP), which puts Dayton at 57out of 200 metro areas they look at (ranking in the general vicinity of Tucson, Anne Arbor, Eugene, and Syracuse)

http://www.best-cities.org/bestcities.taf?rankyear=2013&type=Large-cities&metro=MDAY

A recent Brookings study took a broader definition of STEM (including things likeskilled, technologically specialized requiring strong math and some computerskills like like tool & die making and CNC machining). The Dayton mero area scored pretty high in this study:

http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports/2013/06/10-stem-economy-rothwell
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Old 07-12-2014, 04:53 AM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
4,245 posts, read 5,763,631 times
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Another way of looking at affordability beyond housing is cost-of-living. Sperlings Best Places has a nice breakout of cost-of-living indices for various things beyond housing for the Dayton metro area

Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed

As one can see , Dayton isn’t all that cheap when it comes to “transporation” (as in gas & insurance) and “utilities”, exceeding the national average. Food is slightly, cheaper, though (according to this site

Another website also has the cost of living low (a somewhat different categorization, though).

Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed

Using this site, here is the Dayton rankings for a few key areas (100 points being the national average

83 (overall ranking)

Groceries: 93

Housing: 42

Utilities: 112

Transportation: 98

Health Care: 94

Goods & Services: 102









[

Last edited by Yac; 07-18-2014 at 07:24 AM..
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Old 07-12-2014, 12:09 PM
 
6,845 posts, read 4,439,184 times
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Another aspect of this saga: see the link below, commenting on a city's capacity to attract college-graduates, and the resulting positive feedback loop:

A

The article elides discussion of college graduates saddled with debt, or those who pursued "fluff" majors and are consequently unable to find remunerative jobs. But back to the topic of affordability... a nominally more "expensive" city might offer amenities courtesy of the overall higher wealth of the populace. These amenities are difficult to price, but presumably they defray the higher cost of living. Again, this is of marginal value to financially-strapped people or those just starting their adult lives. But it's definitely a consideration for those who are more established.
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Old 07-13-2014, 12:12 PM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,794,473 times
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Again, good points.

To be honest though, Dayton right now is largely not in a position to try and capture top college talent. We're not that type of market. We're not a "sexy" city like Austin TX or Portland OR, and we don't have a large amount of "sexy" jobs like marketers, financial workers, designers, or lawyers.

And when I say "top college talent" - I'm referring to those in business, the humanities, the arts, and other non-STEM fields.



We CAN attract top STEM talent with WPAFB. And we routinely do. What's really interesting is the info Dayton Sux posted, it really shows how we can get good STEM talent even if our median wages are less. In fact, at my college now I am pursuing a STEM degree and I routinely hear peers talk about how they want to work at WPAFB once they leave. Keep in mind these people are not from Dayton (or even Ohio).


Wright-Patt puts us in a unique position to draw top STEM talent, while most other fields our ability to draw human capital is probably on par with maybe Akron or Grand Rapids. Louisville and Grand Rapids in particular would be good model cities to consider as far as amenities offered. BUT.....



We are forgetting the critical piece of the puzzle that, basically, keeps Dayton from "having nice things" - our proximity to Cincinnati and Columbus. In many metro areas, it takes just as long to drive from the suburbs to downtown as it does for us to drive from our homes to Cincinnati OR Columbus! That's a big advantage we have over places like Rochester.
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Old 07-13-2014, 02:24 PM
 
127 posts, read 142,562 times
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I think what's keeping Dayton from "having nice things" isn't so much it's proximity to Cincinnati and Columbus, but more so the presence of Dayton's suburbs. While both cities are roughly an hour away from the base, I don't know of many base employees who commute from either city. (There definitely are people who commute from those cities, but there doesn't seem to be many of them.)

The fact that there are so many STEM jobs in the area brings me back to the question of why Dayton is so different from any of the places I've lived. Some people on here have commented that it's because many people who fill those STEM jobs are from the area, and have more conservative values (ie: they want to settle down at a young age and raise a family, so they settle in the suburbs). I'm not sure I completely buy that. Jobs in the STEM fields will attract people from other areas of the country, and people in the STEM fields aren't necessarily more ready to settle down than people in other fields.
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