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Old 08-11-2014, 12:07 AM
 
398 posts, read 360,537 times
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It's outrageous that this happened in the first place.
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Old 08-11-2014, 06:38 AM
 
127 posts, read 142,398 times
Reputation: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHKID View Post
1. I don't see why a civilian with a toy gun had to be killed. Especially with concealed carry laws an other loose gun policies. I think this should be a good reason to question what gun pilicy should look like in the US.
This really doesn't have that much to do with gun policy. Rather, it was a case where someone aimed a weapon at people and refused to drop the weapon when confronted by police. I don't agree with open carry laws, but there's a difference between what happens at rallies supporting open carry laws and what happened at the Walmart last week.

As other posters have already mentioned, a pellet gun isn't a 'toy gun.' It can still seriously injure or even kill an individual. The police shot at the suspect/victim (depending on your point of view) because:
1. he was walking through a store and aiming a gun at people,
2. they couldn't tell that the gun was a pellet gun (and if you want to compare the pellet gun to a similar looking gun, WDTN posted this clip a few days ago), and
3. he didn't respond to their requests to drop the gun.
A civilian with a 'toy gun' didn't have to be killed that night. All he needed to do was comply with the police's requests to put down the weapon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OHKID View Post
3. Something is very wrong with this case. There's a reason why it's a big deal, because it just doesn't add up. Why would someone with a toy gun, even if they were pointing it menacingly, be shot in cold blood? Why did the victim not respond to police commands?
The main reason why the local media has given this case so much coverage is because it happened at a Walmart in Beavercreek. Had this happened in a high crime area, the media probably wouldn't have given it as much coverage.
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Old 08-11-2014, 07:34 AM
 
9,360 posts, read 15,824,172 times
Reputation: 17166
@OP: And that is where we disagree 100%.. He wasn't shot in cold blood (the police did not go to Walmart on their own volition, walk into the store and randomly shoot some black guy because they felt like shooting someone that day) and the law does work.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:52 AM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,787,736 times
Reputation: 1813
Yep, we will have to continue to disagree. I don't see even remotely how this killing was justifiable.

Regardless, the law works to an extent, but it is far from perfect. It cannot capture every nuance of any event, it cannot witness crime itself, it is riddled with human error. To simply say the law works fosters a police state. Fahrenheit 451 is a good warning of what happens when society does not questions the rules put forth by those in power. We all must question the law. Follow it, but never trust it. And sure as heck don't blindly believe it is perfect. Perfection does not exist.
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Old 08-11-2014, 09:37 PM
 
211 posts, read 263,480 times
Reputation: 379
I heard that the guy was on the phone with two different females in some kind of dispute with them. He was walking around with the gun not really paying attention because he was engaged in those conversations. Police showed up after people got scared, and they were too quick to pull the trigger. That is the narrative as I heard it to counter "crazy guy walking around scaring people on purpose". Sure, its rumor at this point but do you really trust the Associated Press to give a full and detailed account? Too many times articles are released with misleading titles and with video/audio clips that have been rearranged or otherwise manipulated to give false impressions.

It seems like it should become pretty obvious once the Walmart security footage is released. The parents have a right to know why their son was killed. I've been bothered by the militarization of police forces, too. I was especially bothered a few months ago when police in Georgia no-knocked a house and threw a frag grenade into a baby's crib. They didn't even apprehend their suspect there. On the other hand, it recently occurred to me that nearly every adult that walks around is capable of recording video and audio evidence of police over reach in addition to being able to post that information onto the Internet. It is possible, then, that we simply are more aware of individual incidents. For my own sanity, I choose to believe that this is the case in general terms.
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Old 08-12-2014, 07:00 AM
 
Location: In a happy place
3,707 posts, read 6,573,948 times
Reputation: 7332
Quote:
Originally Posted by curzon_dax View Post
I heard that the guy was on the phone with two different females in some kind of dispute with them. He was walking around with the gun not really paying attention because he was engaged in those conversations. Police showed up after people got scared, and they were too quick to pull the trigger. That is the narrative as I heard it to counter "crazy guy walking around scaring people on purpose". Sure, its rumor at this point but do you really trust the Associated Press to give a full and detailed account? Too many times articles are released with misleading titles and with video/audio clips that have been rearranged or otherwise manipulated to give false impressions.

It seems like it should become pretty obvious once the Walmart security footage is released. The parents have a right to know why their son was killed. I've been bothered by the militarization of police forces, too. I was especially bothered a few months ago when police in Georgia no-knocked a house and threw a frag grenade into a baby's crib. They didn't even apprehend their suspect there. On the other hand, it recently occurred to me that nearly every adult that walks around is capable of recording video and audio evidence of police over reach in addition to being able to post that information onto the Internet. It is possible, then, that we simply are more aware of individual incidents. For my own sanity, I choose to believe that this is the case in general terms.
I like how you counter the news reports with a post that starts out "I heard "
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:02 AM
 
211 posts, read 263,480 times
Reputation: 379
The news hasn't really reported anything reliable or substantive at this point, either. Stories like this tend to get narratives built up behind them by news agencies that are trying to present the information in a particular light. In the Trayvon Martin case some news outlets were releasing pictures of him that were 3+ years old and intentionally editing the 9/11 call to make the case more clear cut. Other news outlets were busy releasing pictures that weren't even Trayvon Martin and claiming that because the kid bought a couple cheap items at a gas station he was definitely going to go do a bunch of drugs. The way the story is told has a lot to do with how we judge the actors involved. At this point, I don't believe much has been told, but like I said there should be ample Walmart security footage that we won't have to doubt in this one.
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Old 08-12-2014, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,016,458 times
Reputation: 2334
If John Crawford were alive today he would have been arraigned on murder charges anyway, because his erratic behavior was a direct and proximate cause of her death and he should have reasonably known that waving a gun around in Wal-Mart, whether a BB gun or a real one, is likely to cause panic.

Bikers Support Angela Williams, Dead in Wal-Mart Incident
Quote:
A Fairborn woman, 37-year-old Angela Williams, also died inside the store as a result of an apparent medical emergency she suffered while running from the incident with her 9-year-old daughter.

Williams, 37, collapsed while running from the chaos inside the Walmart the night of the police officer-involved shooting of John Crawford III.

Williams was pronounced dead at Soin Medical Center that same night.
And since people are bringing up open carry, I feel the need to remind the world that "open carry" advocates always either have their weapon holstered, or in the case of a rifle, is in a sling on their backs. Not "being waved around randomly at customers."

***

And why is someone from Fairfield in the Beavercreek Wal-Mart, on the phone with two women, one of which is the baby daddy, and the other claims he was playing video games? Someone doesn't have their story straight.
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:57 PM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,787,736 times
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^its a chicken or egg question, but who really caused the additional death, the guy with the BB gun or the following police response? How could it be proven that either party caused her death?

And right now those surveillance videos still haven't been released. They have them, why aren't they getting shown? If the guy was pointing the gun at people, I imagine there would be at least a few good minutes of him brandishing it "inappropriately" (air quotes because current gun lawsuit restrict his behavior - please correct if I'm wrong). Why aren't we seeing it?

I'm glad this case is getting decent coverage. Because it doesn't add up. In a lot more ways than with just the victim alone.
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:59 PM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,787,736 times
Reputation: 1813
Quote:
Originally Posted by curzon_dax View Post
The news hasn't really reported anything reliable or substantive at this point, either. Stories like this tend to get narratives built up behind them by news agencies that are trying to present the information in a particular light. In the Trayvon Martin case some news outlets were releasing pictures of him that were 3+ years old and intentionally editing the 9/11 call to make the case more clear cut. Other news outlets were busy releasing pictures that weren't even Trayvon Martin and claiming that because the kid bought a couple cheap items at a gas station he was definitely going to go do a bunch of drugs. The way the story is told has a lot to do with how we judge the actors involved. At this point, I don't believe much has been told, but like I said there should be ample Walmart security footage that we won't have to doubt in this one.
Exactly. The footage should be cut and dry.
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