Would Dayton be better than Boise, Idaho (Cleveland, Cincinnati: rental car, rental)
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Hi, I currently live in Boise, ID. I am a 54 year old man, and I have 3 cats. Recently a close relative passed away, my only relative in the area, and so I am looking to move. I am originally from Northern Illinois (the Joliet area). So my heart is in the Midwest. I spent quite a bit of time on Google Earth looking at the landscape of Western Ohio. It seems the landscape that appealed to me the most is around Dayton. (I know nothing about the city, but more on that later). Where I grew up, there was a nice mix of farmland and woods. It was also hilly in some of the areas so we had nice wooded ravines to explore. I started in Cincinnati on Google Earth view, and I felt the Cincinnati area was too wooded. There seemed to be a nice balance of woods and farmland in Dayton. And then as I went North of Dayton, there was seemingly too much farmland, and not enough trees or woods. What do you think about my Google Earth conclusion? Is it correct? Can you recommend another town that is similar to where I grew up? I am looking at Ohio because I am a day-trader in the stock market. (I work from home). Idaho is in the Mountain Time Zone, and Ohio is in the Eastern Time Zone. I have to get up very early in Idaho to be able to day trade the market when it opens at 0930 Eastern time. I like a city about 200K max, or less, but I will live in a big city if I can live in a smaller outlying town. I have been to Indianapolis before, and it just doesn't appeal to me. I think Western Ohio is a good fit for me. Is it a good place to find a townhouse or duplex to rent for, say, $800? Is Dayton a clean, attractive town? Are people in Dayton happy? Is it a good location from which to take scenic motorcycle rides? Are the winters cloudy and cold? How soon does Spring arrive in that neck of the woods? In Northern Illinois, Spring didn't appear til mid April. I prefer to live some place where Spring arrives much earlier? Thank you very much for your input. I will be moving at the end of my lease on December 1st.
Not to needlessly bicker here, but as someone who knows both Dayton and Indianapolis quite well I'll have to respectfully disagree. And this is coming from someone who likes both cities a great deal.
The two cities could not feel any more different if they were trying.
Dayton has a very east coast vibe to it. I know this sounds odd, but if you really spend a lot of time in city limits and then book a flight to Philadelphia the day after you'll see what I mean. Dayton is a mini-Philly.
The city has a couple of arteries that can be used for reference, but to the lazy the main divider is the river and to the more knowledgeable the city is divided by a more complicated system of reference points from a mix of rivers, freeways, creeks, hills, and primary surface streets.
That being said, the city is a lot more straightforward than someplace like Cincinnati, which is a fool's paradise for thinking you know a neighborhood and then being thrown a curveball to prove not only you are wrong, but decidedly wrong. Dayton's personality does not borrow any from the river-town vibe of places like Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Louisville, or St. Louis in my opinion (and a discussion of how these are culturally different in itself would be quite interesting, since Louisville IMO is a quinessentially midwestern feeling place with barely a hint of southern feel while Cincinnati can feel decidedly southern depending on where you go).
Dayton to its east and south has a very "suburban tech" vibe, a lot like what you'd anticipate in Oakland Co. north of Detroit, to the north is a few miles of working class blending quickly into idealized small-town Ohio, and to the west an area akin to what you may expect of southside Chicago, complete with its version of Obama's hood, Hyde Park, scattered throughout Dayton View. With the way the street arteries go, the presence of the rivers, the downtown vibe, the electric trolley system, and the vibe of the neighborhoods, the overall picture would make Dayton an apt substitute for Philadelphia, although I imagine it wouldn't have many issues filling in for Baltimore or Providence either. Or even the upstate NY cities like Rochester and Buffalo.
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Indianapolis on the other hand is very southern feeling. I've never been to Houston or LA, but I imagine they both would be very reminiscent of Indianapolis. It embraces its grid, moreso than even Chicago or Detroit, in a way that is similar to Houston. It's not as commercial or built up as Chicago, you'll see a lot of houses along those main streets. The city is 100% gridded, most all people go off streets and street corners as reference points rather than neighborhoods, even into the far-flung suburbs. If you have a big tricked out car, this would be the place to drive it with the windows down and the radio up.
Downtown is very clean, comparable even to the cleanliness of downtown Chicago. Retail downtown not only exists but is prominent, although the recent loss of Nordstrom downtown took a bit of a chip off the shoulder of the downtown retail scene. The sheer number of apartments downtown is astounding, and new complexes are constantly being built.
In terms of where wealth and people reside in Indy, it's almost an exact carbon-copy of Columbus, but don't let that confuse you and think they are exactly the same. Far from it. Columbus is a lot more neighborhood-oriented and feels like many, many cities merged together, each with their own little inherent boundaries (although I will emphasize not to the extent of Cincinnati). Indianapolis really feels like one big, cohesive city, with a minimal amount of distinctions between places. "Neighborhoods" very smoothly transition from one to another. There is no clear "bad" side of town, although there are bad streets and bad corners. Entirely different mentality.
Again, not to bicker but Dayton and Indy aren't comparable at all despite their proximity. Comparing the two would be like comparing Germany to Spain. They have very little in common, in fact I'd argue both feel quite different than any other city in their region (although Hamilton does feel like a mini-Dayton, and Middletown a far less prosperous and more polluted version of Indy).
You think Cincinnati feels more southern than Louisville? Come on now. I agree Louisville is not as southern as you would guess. Plus, it plays up the whole south thing for tourism, especially lately (think Derby and bourbon). Cincy and Louisville both have a southern flair, but Louisville is much more southern, if only bc it has more ppl living in th metro who moved from rural KY. Cincy also has a lot of rural southerners in the metro, especially from EKY, which give it a very southern vibe in parts, especially for a Midwest city. Cincy and Louisville are both Midwestern cities. Despite what many Ohioans say, the old urban core of each city are remarkably similar, from the Catholic churches, fish fry, and picnics, to the parochial sort of insular vibe they are known for, to being old German (and Irish) industrial river towns on the come back that have played up their food and architecture to promote tourism. But Louisville can play south when she wants, and has more southern culture, more southern food, and likely has more residents in the area who identify as southern bc they grew up in rural KY or the rural south.
So as someone who's lived in the Dayton area for 20 years, someone who rides a motorcycle, and someone who visited Boise this year, I'd like to chime in.
Anywhere in this area will meet your timezone needs.
If you're used to Boise, and move to Dayton, you're going to be disappointed in terms of city cleanliness. Dayton is a classic industrial town, is just not even in the same category as Boise. I was shocked at how nice Downtown Boise was. That being said, Dayton is improving and slowly being cleaned up and gentrified, but you'll probably be in your 70s before its on par with Boise, and that's assuming the trend continues.
This is a difficult question. Traditionally, no. But we embrace our misery and wear shirts that have our area code on them.
Boise has a distinct, upbeat PacNW feel. My feeling after 12 days in Boise was that the people were more likely to chat with you, but less likely to actually engage you in conversation, if that makes sense. In Dayton and surrounding areas, it's closer to an East Coast vibe. Harder to make friends, but your good friends will be really good friends. Riding a motorcycle gives you a head start in this regard because there are lots of organized ride events; poker runs and such. Stop anywhere you see parked bikes and you'll make friends.
I don't think you'll like Dayton, then. Very similar feel, generally speaking.
Sooner than Northern IL, but not that much sooner. Most years I start riding in late April, early May. Winters are generally overcast with occasional sunny days. Snow stays on the ground for a couple weeks at a time. February is our coldest month, with a few nights below zero on Average. We don't have winter inversions, though. Our air stays on the move all year.
Honestly, I think you should take a look at the Louisville, KY area. Wonderful town with Traditional Southern hospitality, and some of the best rides in this part of the country. People are generally happy and friendly. Surrounded by a mix of woods and rolling farm country and the winters end a tad sooner. Cost of living is probably a tad lower than the Boise area. Just a thought!
I agree. Louisville is a bit larger and just offers more amenities. Better in art, food, architecture, entertainment sports....most categories. It is also growing, whereas Dayton is still on the decline, and while still Midwest, is a good clip warmer with less snow. The surrounding country with its rolling hills, curves, and nice scenic roads through horse country, offers great riding areas. Lots of clubs for that stuff too.
Thank you for this insightful information. It helped me quite a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RadioOutrun
Hello,
So as someone who's lived in the Dayton area for 20 years, someone who rides a motorcycle, and someone who visited Boise this year, I'd like to chime in.
Anywhere in this area will meet your timezone needs.
If you're used to Boise, and move to Dayton, you're going to be disappointed in terms of city cleanliness. Dayton is a classic industrial town, is just not even in the same category as Boise. I was shocked at how nice Downtown Boise was. That being said, Dayton is improving and slowly being cleaned up and gentrified, but you'll probably be in your 70s before its on par with Boise, and that's assuming the trend continues.
This is a difficult question. Traditionally, no. But we embrace our misery and wear shirts that have our area code on them.
Boise has a distinct, upbeat PacNW feel. My feeling after 12 days in Boise was that the people were more likely to chat with you, but less likely to actually engage you in conversation, if that makes sense. In Dayton and surrounding areas, it's closer to an East Coast vibe. Harder to make friends, but your good friends will be really good friends. Riding a motorcycle gives you a head start in this regard because there are lots of organized ride events; poker runs and such. Stop anywhere you see parked bikes and you'll make friends.
I don't think you'll like Dayton, then. Very similar feel, generally speaking.
Sooner than Northern IL, but not that much sooner. Most years I start riding in late April, early May. Winters are generally overcast with occasional sunny days. Snow stays on the ground for a couple weeks at a time. February is our coldest month, with a few nights below zero on Average. We don't have winter inversions, though. Our air stays on the move all year.
Honestly, I think you should take a look at the Louisville, KY area. Wonderful town with Traditional Southern hospitality, and some of the best rides in this part of the country. People are generally happy and friendly. Surrounded by a mix of woods and rolling farm country and the winters end a tad sooner. Cost of living is probably a tad lower than the Boise area. Just a thought!
I like an industrial landscape. I find them very interesting. On the other hand, I do not like East coast people. Having driven a truck over-the-road for a few years, I always found like the standards of the East coast people were quite low. I think I would prefer a more southern hospitality environment. I'm betting Dayton is not unlike Joliet, Illinois. I definitely do not want to go back to a Joliet-like place to live.
Wow it is easy to get into the weeds when comparing cities. All the information and subtle cultural insights and differences between east west north and south is enough to make my brain want to shut-down. A mini Philly is very helpful. I would not want to live in Philly. I have been there quite a few times, and it's not for me. You say that Louisville has a midwestern feel, and other people have said it has a southern boutique charm. Having lived in Joliet, IL, I am quite familiar with Chicago, and I don't like it. Yuck. If a part of Dayton has a Chicago Southside feel, and parts of it feel like Philly, no way it is the place for me. At least I have been able to determine that much. I am confused and don't know where I should go. My gut feeling tells me to go to the South. I want lush greenery, some farm land, some industry, and a place that does not feel like Chicago or the Northeast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWOH
Not to needlessly bicker here, but as someone who knows both Dayton and Indianapolis quite well I'll have to respectfully disagree. And this is coming from someone who likes both cities a great deal.
The two cities could not feel any more different if they were trying.
Dayton has a very east coast vibe to it. I know this sounds odd, but if you really spend a lot of time in city limits and then book a flight to Philadelphia the day after you'll see what I mean. Dayton is a mini-Philly.
The city has a couple of arteries that can be used for reference, but to the lazy the main divider is the river and to the more knowledgeable the city is divided by a more complicated system of reference points from a mix of rivers, freeways, creeks, hills, and primary surface streets.
That being said, the city is a lot more straightforward than someplace like Cincinnati, which is a fool's paradise for thinking you know a neighborhood and then being thrown a curveball to prove not only you are wrong, but decidedly wrong. Dayton's personality does not borrow any from the river-town vibe of places like Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Louisville, or St. Louis in my opinion (and a discussion of how these are culturally different in itself would be quite interesting, since Louisville IMO is a quinessentially midwestern feeling place with barely a hint of southern feel while Cincinnati can feel decidedly southern depending on where you go).
Dayton to its east and south has a very "suburban tech" vibe, a lot like what you'd anticipate in Oakland Co. north of Detroit, to the north is a few miles of working class blending quickly into idealized small-town Ohio, and to the west an area akin to what you may expect of southside Chicago, complete with its version of Obama's hood, Hyde Park, scattered throughout Dayton View. With the way the street arteries go, the presence of the rivers, the downtown vibe, the electric trolley system, and the vibe of the neighborhoods, the overall picture would make Dayton an apt substitute for Philadelphia, although I imagine it wouldn't have many issues filling in for Baltimore or Providence either. Or even the upstate NY cities like Rochester and Buffalo.
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Indianapolis on the other hand is very southern feeling. I've never been to Houston or LA, but I imagine they both would be very reminiscent of Indianapolis. It embraces its grid, moreso than even Chicago or Detroit, in a way that is similar to Houston. It's not as commercial or built up as Chicago, you'll see a lot of houses along those main streets. The city is 100% gridded, most all people go off streets and street corners as reference points rather than neighborhoods, even into the far-flung suburbs. If you have a big tricked out car, this would be the place to drive it with the windows down and the radio up.
Downtown is very clean, comparable even to the cleanliness of downtown Chicago. Retail downtown not only exists but is prominent, although the recent loss of Nordstrom downtown took a bit of a chip off the shoulder of the downtown retail scene. The sheer number of apartments downtown is astounding, and new complexes are constantly being built.
In terms of where wealth and people reside in Indy, it's almost an exact carbon-copy of Columbus, but don't let that confuse you and think they are exactly the same. Far from it. Columbus is a lot more neighborhood-oriented and feels like many, many cities merged together, each with their own little inherent boundaries (although I will emphasize not to the extent of Cincinnati). Indianapolis really feels like one big, cohesive city, with a minimal amount of distinctions between places. "Neighborhoods" very smoothly transition from one to another. There is no clear "bad" side of town, although there are bad streets and bad corners. Entirely different mentality.
Again, not to bicker but Dayton and Indy aren't comparable at all despite their proximity. Comparing the two would be like comparing Germany to Spain. They have very little in common, in fact I'd argue both feel quite different than any other city in their region (although Hamilton does feel like a mini-Dayton, and Middletown a far less prosperous and more polluted version of Indy).
Is it a good place to find a townhouse or duplex to rent for, say, $800? Is Dayton a clean, attractive town? Are people in Dayton happy? Is it a good location from which to take scenic motorcycle rides? Are the winters cloudy and cold? How soon does Spring arrive in that neck of the woods? In Northern Illinois, Spring didn't appear til mid April. I prefer to live some place where Spring arrives much earlier?
So I think you're going to have to weigh which factors are most important to you and then choose a place.
1. Can you rent a townhouse for $800? Yes
2. Is Dayton clean and attractive? This will probably upset some people on this board, but in comparison to other cities in the US: no. Downtown is slowly improving, and may be clean and attractive in 5 (or 10 or 15) years, but Dayton is a Rust Belt city that hasn't experienced the large gains in amenities and population that other cities in the US have seen in the last 25 years or so.
3. Are the people happy? I'd say this largely depends on your circle of friends and acquaintances. It's difficult to measure the happiness of a city's residents. If you're around people who are largely positive, then I'd say yes. This is true of most places.
4. Is it a good starting point for scenic motorcycle rides? Based on what you're looking for, yes.
5. Are the winters cloudy and cold? Yes. It's not uncommon to go for 10 or more days without seeing the sun in the winter and early spring. In years when the polar vortex stops by for a visit, lows can dip to -10 or so.
6. When does spring arrive? Technically speaking, spring arrives in late March regardless of where you are in the US. But according to the NOAA, Dayton's date of last frost is April 27. I'd say the weather is similar to what you experienced in Joliet, but with a shift toward warm weather appearing slightly earlier.
I'm not sure Dayton has so much of an East Coast vibe as a Rust Belt vibe. When I think of cities in the northeast, I think of rowhouses, which Dayton lacks. If you want a feel for Dayton's downtown (or any other neighborhood), just use StreetView on Google Maps. I'd say it's comparable to Akron, Toledo, or most other mid-size cities in the Midwest. If you want greenery, farmland, and industry plus affordability, warm weather, and attractive cities, I'd look south.
OP, for your interests I don't think Dayton proper would be the place to go.
I still strongly recommend Hamilton, Fairborn, or maybe Xenia given your budget of $800/mo for a townhome that will accept pets. Even Oxford Ohio would be good since the college presence has led to a number of rentals there in your price range.
If you want to look further south, go for it, but you probably won't get as much for your dollar. That being said, already in Hamilton or Fairborn you are scraping the low end of the barrel with this budget for a townhome, I can't imagine moving to a higher cost of living place further south or wherever would you much good.
Also keep in mind that before you said you disliked Indy and it is the most traditionally southern feeling large city in the area. Maybe a small town in southern Indiana would suit your interests better, I personally have lived down there in a small town and can give a couple pointers if that would be of interest.
My final recommendation is to try Chillicothe and Marietta OH along with Huntington WV. It is hillier in these places than Hamilton, but especially with Chillicothe you should meet your criteria well.
You think Cincinnati feels more southern than Louisville? Come on now. I agree Louisville is not as southern as you would guess. Plus, it plays up the whole south thing for tourism, especially lately (think Derby and bourbon). Cincy and Louisville both have a southern flair, but Louisville is much more southern, if only bc it has more ppl living in th metro who moved from rural KY. Cincy also has a lot of rural southerners in the metro, especially from EKY, which give it a very southern vibe in parts, especially for a Midwest city. Cincy and Louisville are both Midwestern cities. Despite what many Ohioans say, the old urban core of each city are remarkably similar, from the Catholic churches, fish fry, and picnics, to the parochial sort of insular vibe they are known for, to being old German (and Irish) industrial river towns on the come back that have played up their food and architecture to promote tourism. But Louisville can play south when she wants, and has more southern culture, more southern food, and likely has more residents in the area who identify as southern bc they grew up in rural KY or the rural south.
You're kidding yourself if you think Louisvilles architecture and built structure is similar to Cincy. Two entirely different build styles and eras.
As for one feeling more southern than the other, I'll give you it. Cincy defines a regional feel, much like St Louis or New Orleans do in their regions, while Louisville feels solidly Midwestern. I would not call either one southern, if anything Louisville defines blue grass country which IMO is not southern, but to each their own. I would classify blue grass country as its own specific breed, dissimilar from any surrounding cultures.
Indianapolis wouldn't feel out of place in Texas or North Carolina, IMO, it would make an apt replacement for Houston or Charlotte, while Louisville doesn't fit the south culturally.
Wow it is easy to get into the weeds when comparing cities. All the information and subtle cultural insights and differences between east west north and south is enough to make my brain want to shut-down. A mini Philly is very helpful. I would not want to live in Philly. I have been there quite a few times, and it's not for me. You say that Louisville has a midwestern feel, and other people have said it has a southern boutique charm. Having lived in Joliet, IL, I am quite familiar with Chicago, and I don't like it. Yuck. If a part of Dayton has a Chicago Southside feel, and parts of it feel like Philly, no way it is the place for me. At least I have been able to determine that much. I am confused and don't know where I should go. My gut feeling tells me to go to the South. I want lush greenery, some farm land, some industry, and a place that does not feel like Chicago or the Northeast.
I'm from Chicago and the Chicagoland area; Dayton is nothing like Joliet or the South Side. Earlier in the thread, I mentioned heading more east towards Athens, OH or Logan, OH. I think you'll find it more of what you're looking for, although I do have a very special place in my heart for Chattanooga so you should check that out too. :-)
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But according to the NOAA, Dayton's date of last frost is April 27. I'd say the weather is similar to what you experienced in Joliet, but with a shift toward warm weather appearing slightly earlier. 
