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Old 10-24-2015, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Covington, KY
1,879 posts, read 2,122,462 times
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My, my how we are ignoring the questions about the water.

.
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Old 10-24-2015, 04:15 PM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,783,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerryMason614 View Post
Have you been to a fast food joint lately? $6 or $7 for a McDonalds or Wendy's combo meal. Chick-Fil-A almost $9 for a grilled chicken sandwich. THAT isn't going to work, either.
You're probably better off sticking with Campbell's Soup.


CP, yes we are. That is a big advantage Dayton & region has, and fortunately we have enough that we don't often have to worry about water rights.


Just as an FYI, Hamilton has the best tasting water around, winning numerous awards including "World's Best-Tasting Tap Water" a few years running.
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Old 10-24-2015, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Five Oaks
430 posts, read 447,695 times
Reputation: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpathianPeasant View Post
Apparently hensleya1 overlooked this, so....

Repeat:


What's the source of Dayton water?

And, for that matter, was it really worth holding up the construction of Greater Cincinnati International Airport in Boone county Kentucky for the sake of Cincinnati water?

There's no denying it's basically hard water or that it was ruined some with floride.

(Yeah, I know I spelled fluoride wrong -- no red underline at the time.)

.
The aquifer.
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Old 10-24-2015, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,013,856 times
Reputation: 2334
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWOH View Post
So the "middle class" of blue collar people in big factories, McDonald's kitchens, etc. can't be "middle class". It's not going to work out. But they can make minimum wage, and government can determine a rate which provides these workers with an adequate living given their location in the USA and its cost of living. Set a rate, index it and update it every year, and move on.

Those blue collar workers will never be middle class again, nor should they be, but they shouldn't have to starve and should be able to buy a modest house if they make smart financial decisions. Simple as that.

There should never be a day again where a line worker makes as much as a college grad.
That was the result of post-war inefficiency and stupidity.
These people should never be guaranteed a pension either.

But they should have economic opportunity via a $15/hr min wage job indexed to inflation, cost of living, etc. to live a modest life, not starve, and not rely on public assistance.
This post is wrong on so many levels that I want to tear my hair out and I'm really scared for our country's future if you vote.

Because you advocate for two contradictory things. The first is based out of a profound ignorance of the manufacturing process and the skill involved in performing this job effectively... and the second is based out of a profound ignorance of not only economics but also supply chain management.

1) Before you deride any blue collar job, I challenge you watch The Last Truck. It aired on HBO a few years ago and was directed by some Wright State students if I recall correctly. They go around interviewing the line workers at the General Motors assembly. Blue collar work is hard work. Many employees will tell you stories of how they leave the assembly line at the end of the day and barely being able to walk or function because of how demanding the job was. It was on the backs of these employees - that they were able to propel themselves up into the middle class. They were able to buy houses, take vacations, and try to provide a better opportunity for their children. It's the stuff that the American Dream is made out of.

Also, those jobs require massive amounts of on-the-job-acquired skills. Precision machining and working with tools of all varieties is not a skill learned overnight, and it's certainly not something taught in college. If you ever think a manufacturing job isn't worth the $20-ish an hour that those jobs paid, you're welcome to find a blue collar job and go work it for a few days at less and tell me if you got paid fairly. They worked hard to get ahead, only to get screwed and sold out by the NAFTA peddlers.

2) Artificially mandating a minimum wage of $15 will just make things worse for the middle class, who will be the true losers of any minimum wage hike.

Why do I say that? Consider your McDonalds employee who may be currently paid $8 instead. It's not simply a matter of raising that employee's wage and everything's all honky-dorey and prices are only raised a few cents.

If the line worker gets his wage doubled, so does the cook in the back.
And so does the delivery truck driver.
And everyone at the meat factory who packaged the burgers.
And every rancher wants a raise too.

When you raise one person's wage, suddenly those who made $15 an hour are now at the minimum - and will demand a raise themselves. Everyone down the chain wants a raise, aggravating price inflation.

At the end of the day, the $1.69 burger is now $4. And you still can't buy more than 3 for an hour's worth of work at minimum wage.

The true loser is the middle class - those who make $25 to $30 an hour and don't get raises to compensate for rising prices everywhere else. Their real incomes are reduced... as people now have lots of dollars that have little value.
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Old 10-24-2015, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,013,856 times
Reputation: 2334
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpathianPeasant View Post
.

My, my how we are ignoring the questions about the water.

.
As Amandarthegreat said, the aquifer. I'm not sure what the connection is between the aquifer and the poor quality water at the tap... short of there being poor filtration methods over at the plant?

I cook with bottled water now, and I run my coffee maker and any other appliances that use water with bottled water. I haven't had any problems with gummed up appliances since then.
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Old 10-24-2015, 09:22 PM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,783,671 times
Reputation: 1813
Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
This post is wrong on so many levels that I want to tear my hair out and I'm really scared for our country's future if you vote.
Considering this is my career field, I know what I'm talking about. I know Manufacturing & Supply Chain, I have degrees & experience in both of these fields, you have neither. In turn, you know Law, and I do not (as well). So let's leave it at that.

Quote:
Because you advocate for two contradictory things. The first is based out of a profound ignorance of the manufacturing process and the skill involved in performing this job effectively... and the second is based out of a profound ignorance of not only economics but also supply chain management.

1) Before you deride any blue collar job, I challenge you watch The Last Truck. It aired on HBO a few years ago and was directed by some Wright State students if I recall correctly. They go around interviewing the line workers at the General Motors assembly. Blue collar work is hard work. Many employees will tell you stories of how they leave the assembly line at the end of the day and barely being able to walk or function because of how demanding the job was. It was on the backs of these employees - that they were able to propel themselves up into the middle class. They were able to buy houses, take vacations, and try to provide a better opportunity for their children. It's the stuff that the American Dream is made out of.
I'm not saying Blue Collar work is easy. Trust me, I've done it for 5+ years, it's not easy. But it doesn't take skill.

I have had jobs where MY JOB is to design processes specifically so they can be done by ANYONE.
THEIR ENTIRE JOB, EVERY ASPECT OF IT, IS 10 PAGES OF ANNOTATED PICTURES IN A NOTEBOOK.
Anyone can do it.


And the difficulties you described above really are the case for GM people, then they must have had poor Process Engineers in their facilities, poor rotation, or poor conditioning coming into the job.

Many places require a month of strength & safety training for line workers before they ever get on the line. Rotations are required so employees exercise different muscles over the course of the day. Employees are expected to know how to complete 2-3 processes, the better line workers learn even more.

This kind of work should be no more strenuous than working at Chipolte or McDonald's, again if designed and implemented properly. OSHA requires 2 10-minute breaks and one half hour break for all employees that work 8 hours, these rules are skirted by the majority of foodservice organizations which schedule 3.5 hr shifts so neither a 10-min break nor a 30-min lunch break is necessary. IMO both are strenuous, but I still would not say one is worse than the other.

But those line jobs pays 2x more than foodservice, have a full 40-hr schedule and benefits.
See the issue?

Equitable jobs deserve equitable pay.
Foodservice is no different than assembly, and nowhere proves that more than Chipolte.
There is a middle ground between the $60k/yr fat-cat wages of line workers and government subsidy qualifying wages of foodservice workers.


We need to find it, set it as the new minimum wage, index it, and adjust it yearly based on the cost of living in each county in the USA.

Quote:
Also, those jobs require massive amounts of on-the-job-acquired skills. Precision machining and working with tools of all varieties is not a skill learned overnight, and it's certainly not something taught in college. If you ever think a manufacturing job isn't worth the $20-ish an hour that those jobs paid, you're welcome to find a blue collar job and go work it for a few days at less and tell me if you got paid fairly. They worked hard to get ahead, only to get screwed and sold out by the NAFTA peddlers.
You're confusing two different animals here.
Assembly is not manufacturing.

It does take skill to run a CNC Mill or Lathe. A lot of it if you aren't handed a process plan by an engineer to make sure that part comes out exactly right, less if you only have to follow highly exact instructions. Regardless, manufacturing takes a decent amount of skill.

Assembly does not. Assembly only requires following through the same pattern _______ times a day. (Take 480 min in a day, subtract breaks, divide it by your process time, and that's how many times, ideally, the process will be completed in a day).

Assembly is very low-skill.
Assembly is what you saw when you watched The Last Truck.
There is a huge difference between assembly and manufacturing, which you are confusing.


And to be honest, China excels at Manufacturing too. Why?
Because of the industry clusters.

For instance, if you want a computer chip, there is nowhere in the WORLD that can manufacture it better than Shenzhen. American labor would be far inferior. That may burn a few ears, but it's the truth. We don't have the core competencies to produce electronics as well, because our workforce and suppliers and raw materials are not as developed to do it. And even though labor rates are rapidly rising in China, it's still less than the USA. And these clusters are very well established.

But yes, this is exactly why it is critical Dayton continues to build on its Advanced Manufacturing capabilities. The future for this region is in Drones in particular, and Additive manufacturing (3D printing) too. Whatever we can become a "drone hub" is what we should be doing.

Quote:
2) Artificially mandating a minimum wage of $15 will just make things worse for the middle class, who will be the true losers of any minimum wage hike.

Why do I say that? Consider your McDonalds employee who may be currently paid $8 instead. It's not simply a matter of raising that employee's wage and everything's all honky-dorey and prices are only raised a few cents.

If the line worker gets his wage doubled, so does the cook in the back.
And so does the delivery truck driver.
And everyone at the meat factory who packaged the burgers.
And every rancher wants a raise too.
Sacrifice the "holy grail" of farm subsidies, Monsanto doesn't need any more handouts.

But really, my evidence is here. Read the Congressional Budget Office Report:
https://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995

A wage increase to $10.10/hr will lift 16.5 million people out of poverty, and kill 500,000 jobs in return.
Not a bad tradeoff IMO.

Total wage increase paid out will be $31 billion.
How much did the Iraq War cost again?
Or how much in corporate welfare did the Fortune 50 receive last year?
Less than this figure.

Keep in mind this increase would substantially reduce the number of minimum wage employees on welfare.
And keep in mind the average minimum wage worker is ~35 years old, a woman, and has children.
http://www.epi.org/publication/wage-...rkers-benefit/



Quote:
When you raise one person's wage, suddenly those who made $15 an hour are now at the minimum - and will demand a raise themselves. Everyone down the chain wants a raise, aggravating price inflation.

At the end of the day, the $1.69 burger is now $4. And you still can't buy more than 3 for an hour's worth of work at minimum wage.

The true loser is the middle class - those who make $25 to $30 an hour and don't get raises to compensate for rising prices everywhere else. Their real incomes are reduced... as people now have lots of dollars that have little value.
Let me ask you this - are Costco's prices comparable to Sams Club?

Yes?

How much does Costco pay their workers?
$11.50/hr starting wage
Average worker wage is $21/hr.

How much does Sams Club pay?
$9.00/hr now, thankfully. Previously it was minimum wage.


Labor at the end of the day isn't a huge cost if resources are allocated appropriately. Look into LEAN for basis. Costco hires the best, and they are able to function and do their job appropriately because they make enough wage to have a decent living, Sams (until recently) made no such effort and got worse workers, which caused more lost sales and damaged/stolen inventory than the low wage was worth. Plus these workers were not motivated to make intelligent decisions, so they half-a.$.$ whatever they could.

If you don't believe me, check out the bathroom at any Walmart Supercenter. Keep in mind these centers aren't even 10 years old. Then go to the Tri-County Costco, which is significantly older than every local Walmart Supercenter, and look at their bathroom.

Which one is in better shape?
Which one has had appropriate preventative maintenance? (costs increase 10x for each step in severity)
Who is really saving money here?
Who is really more efficient?
Who has the better strategy?

The answer is Costco.


So sure, keep believing a massive $1/hr labor force is a great idea.
The amount of harm these workers cause far outweigh any benefit they could have.
And employers don't value them enough to train them properly to keep them from preventing harm.

I mean, why train a guy who is only going to stay in the job for a week?
He'll make a lateral move and be poached off by Bozo the clown. Just because he's already bored and frustrated.





..... I could keep going on all of these points.

Last edited by SWOH; 10-24-2015 at 09:59 PM..
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Old 10-24-2015, 09:26 PM
 
6,824 posts, read 4,415,191 times
Reputation: 11953
In my opinion, the great and abiding malady is the Ohio-wide system of local income taxes (and school-district taxes). If Ohio abolished all local income taxes and adopted one comprehensive state-wide income tax (as is, to my knowledge, done by most states), then the monetary disadvantage of living in Dayton City (vs. an outlying township) would disappear.

In my fantasy scenario, I'd go much further: defederalize the United States. Have a truly sovereign National government, with one tax system, one school system, one legal system, one set of building-codes and highway laws and zoning laws; one national set of laws on marriage and inheritance, vehicle-registration, licensure of doctors/lawyers/accountants. Sometimes it feels that "United States" is plural, not singular; and that Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Kentucky and Pennsylvania are separate nations, rather than just separate administrative regions. Sometimes it feels that Columbus and Dayton and Cincinnati are separate principalities, that Greene County and Montgomery County are the former West Berlin and East Berlin. Driving across Europe, it feels that Belgium and France have more mutually in common than Ohio and Kentucky. If we had one national school system instead of myriad local ones, then there would be no talk of busing or gentrification or moving from Dayton to Oakwood for better schools. If we had one national tax system, them employers would not be relocating from Flint to Spartanburg or downtown Dayton to Austin Landing. Rather than mere Regionalism, I advocate for Nationalism.

Last edited by ohio_peasant; 10-24-2015 at 09:45 PM..
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Old 10-25-2015, 12:57 AM
 
Location: Springfield, Ohio
11,796 posts, read 9,715,656 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post
In my opinion, the great and abiding malady is the Ohio-wide system of local income taxes (and school-district taxes). If Ohio abolished all local income taxes and adopted one comprehensive state-wide income tax (as is, to my knowledge, done by most states), then the monetary disadvantage of living in Dayton City (vs. an outlying township) would disappear.
I agree with this....we didn't have them in California, so city taxes was a foreign concept when I moved here. Of course there was still city vs suburb where schools were concerned, but cities received their state & federal taxes by population...not what the city/town population was willing to pay. There wouldn't be all this "bleeding those still here dry" downward spiral to pay for services in Ohio's depopulated cities.
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Old 10-25-2015, 07:01 AM
 
Location: Covington, KY
1,879 posts, read 2,122,462 times
Reputation: 590
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post
In my opinion, the great and abiding malady is the Ohio-wide system of local income taxes (and school-district taxes). If Ohio abolished all local income taxes and adopted one comprehensive state-wide income tax (as is, to my knowledge, done by most states), then the monetary disadvantage of living in Dayton City (vs. an outlying township) would disappear.

In my fantasy scenario, I'd go much further: defederalize the United States. Have a truly sovereign National government, with one tax system, one school system, one legal system, one set of building-codes and highway laws and zoning laws; one national set of laws on marriage and inheritance, vehicle-registration, licensure of doctors/lawyers/accountants. Sometimes it feels that "United States" is plural, not singular; and that Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Kentucky and Pennsylvania are separate nations, rather than just separate administrative regions. Sometimes it feels that Columbus and Dayton and Cincinnati are separate principalities, that Greene County and Montgomery County are the former West Berlin and East Berlin. Driving across Europe, it feels that Belgium and France have more mutually in common than Ohio and Kentucky. If we had one national school system instead of myriad local ones, then there would be no talk of busing or gentrification or moving from Dayton to Oakwood for better schools. If we had one national tax system, them employers would not be relocating from Flint to Spartanburg or downtown Dayton to Austin Landing. Rather than mere Regionalism, I advocate for Nationalism.

A "state" is a nation. The U.S. is a federation of nations with rather widely differing histories, cultures and to an extent even languages.

You cannot compare even something like Texas, which won independence from Mexico, and the original (separate) thirteen colonies winning independence from England.

There are also regional differences, some imposed by history and some natural. Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan and Wisconsin are the Old Northwest Territories of the original thirteen colonies. The Great Lakes region, however, is more than that and is unique unto itself.

Go south and names are Spanish. Go east and they're English. Go far northwest and you'll likely find some Russian. Go north central and you'll find a splattering of northern and central European. (If you are capable of thinking in more than one language, you should get the point of the distinction.)

The states are not simply "separate administrative regions." For comparison, consider the British Commonwealth.

.
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Old 10-26-2015, 09:37 AM
 
1,007 posts, read 907,665 times
Reputation: 327
Personally, I'd like to see Huber Heights hooked up to Dayton water. The lime and $^&% in it that United calls water is ridiculous!
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