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Old 03-18-2017, 02:03 PM
 
3,514 posts, read 3,780,583 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amandarthegreat View Post
I grew up in Indiana; I've been to and thru Indy more times that I can count.
You cannot compare Indy to Dayton. Indy has grown at the expense of other parts of Indiana; while the rest of the state begs for money for infrastructure, Indianapolis never wants for anything. Secondly, Indy is huge compared to Dayton. Compare Dayton to South Bend or Gary if you want to compare similar history and size.
I'd have to agree with you and Nat510.

Indy to Dayton is not an apt comparison, but Indy to Columbus is (the city are basically clones of each other in a lot of ways).

Living in Indiana now, I can see this being the case, but I'd also argue that it's not due to tax dollars being pulled away from rural areas so much as tax dollars never being paid in the first place. Indiana is a lower tax state... to an extent, but more of those dollars are going to Narcan and addicts than in Ohio, the drug problem in this state is monumental.

Rural voters in Indiana consistently vote down tax increases, and live with the consequences of rapidly deteriorating infrastructure that is almost beyond repair. These voters also vote down taxes for schools, leading to subpar schools, as well as taxes for mental health and rehabilitation services, leaving no help for those who need it. These individuals then prey on those with incomes by robbing their homes, their churches, or otherwise steal from them.

Meanwhile, in Indianapolis proper (as well as its affluent north suburbs), voters consistently support taxes for schools, roads, and other things to keep up nice communities. Keeping up a nice community leads to attracting more affluent people who can then pay even more tax dollars, and on and on the cycle goes to create a nice community.


As far as demographically speaking, I wouldn't say it's a stretch to consider the Dayton metro a half-scale version of the Indy metro, although without any place as dismal as Greenwood (aside from maybe the Salem Ave corridor, but Lawrence is a more appropriate comparison). For better or worse, IMO Dayton as a whole is a lot more similar to Detroit as a whole than any other major city.
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Old 03-18-2017, 02:07 PM
 
3,514 posts, read 3,780,583 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDtheftV View Post
You DO get a lot of that same feeling in Ohio's capital city ( most capital cities ). There is no coincidence why.
Agreed, agreed, agreed. Simple, honest logic here.

DC has been booming because the government has been booming.
If we add more TSA agents, we are also adding more bureaucrats in Washington to manage it.
More DEA agents on the border? Same thing.
And on and on...


Our recession around here was atrocious, but it could have been far worse without the strong government presence with WPAFB in town. We'd have had it worse than Flint if that base was not here.

Auto seems to be coming back in a big way (for now) and distribution/logistics is growing rapidly around here, so there's lots of good signs, we need to keep diversifying though.
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Old 03-19-2017, 12:37 PM
 
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That's the issue I was referring to. Indy is way bigger but can keep its streets clean, traffic moving, etc. Dayton might do well to take a page from their playbook
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Old 03-19-2017, 01:14 PM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
4,245 posts, read 5,747,512 times
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It is. But why? If quality of life is good, why isnít quantity of life (so to speak) increasing? If tech-workers are tired of the commute in Northern Virginia, and housing prices there are exorbitant, and we have cloud-storage and ultra-fast internet etc., well, why arenít those techy firms along I-66 relocating from Centerville, VA, to Centerville, OH? Why donít we have Amazon, Google and Microsoft opening giant research-centers in Austin Landing?

Agglomeration effects ...common concept in economic geography where there is a virtuous cycle of similar industries locating next to each other, creating talent pools and markets for support services, etc, as well as spin-off and new firm formation.


"I never understood this ďvibeĒ...."


&


" The "rose colored glasses" crowd here needs to take a weekender ..." (for me it's Louisville as the weekender)


Yes, haha, of course this is all atmospherics and subjective impressions, and I am trying to both 'be kind', and see the silver linings in gloomy gray clouds of Dayton, while making lemons out of lemonade.....I could easily have spun my opinion toward a Land of the Squares/Dullsville USA rap.


And Indianapolis IS awesome. I think we could take some ideas from them when it comes to cycling infrastructure for urban bike lanes...Indy IS the model for this in this part of the US (tho I hear Chicago is aggressively doing bike lanes), and we have wide downtown streets like they do, so could easily accommodate a Cultural Trail setup.
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Old 03-19-2017, 02:07 PM
 
6,977 posts, read 4,050,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWOH View Post
Living in Indiana now, I can see this being the case, but I'd also argue that it's not due to tax dollars being pulled away from rural areas so much as tax dollars never being paid in the first place. Indiana is a lower tax state
The 100-year lease of the Indiana Toll Road by Indiana Republicans was a massive hidden tax grab from northern Indiana to the benefit of southern Indiana.

<<Consider the counterfactual: What if the recession had not come in 2007 and driving levels exceeded initial expectations? Under the terms of the lease agreement, the private concessionaire has the right to raise tolls each year by the greater of 2 percent or the percentage increase in the Consumer Price Index, or the percentage increase in per capita gross domestic product. This means the concessionaire has the right to increase tolls by a minimum of 2 percent even when inflation is near zero — meaning the company is getting a raise even when workers are not. And, if economic growth and inflation pick up as the economy continues to recover, the actual toll rate will be substantially higher....

The lease doesn't expire until 2081 and the up-front lease payment could turn out to be the most expensive loan in Indiana history.>>

http://www.indystar.com/story/opinio...iers/17888099/

While tolls continue to escalate on the Indiana Toll Road, with 5-axle truck tolls now up to $42, I-70/I-65 remains a free transportation corridor, having received substantial capex from the leasing of the Indiana Toll Road.

The billions raised where disproportionately spent in southern Indiana, including $700 million to extend I-69 through southeastern Indiana.

The tolls on the Indiana Toll Road, and on the Ohio Turnpike, where the Republicans are leveraging the Ohio Turnpike also to finance road construction throughout the state, increasingly are marginalizing the northern Indiana manufacturing economy. The toll is now over $81 using EZ pass for the entire length of I-90/I-80 through Ohio and Indiana.

Additionally, traffic is being diverted to parallel routes such as Route 20, increasing congestion and road maintenance costs, further burdening the northern Indiana economy.

The ongoing destruction of the northern Indiana economy due to the "Republican Toll Road" through Indiana and Ohio will certainly suppress the tax base and tax collections in northern Indiana.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:56 PM
 
6,815 posts, read 4,408,035 times
Reputation: 11918
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Sux View Post
Agglomeration effects ...common concept in economic geography where there is a virtuous cycle of similar industries locating next to each other, creating talent pools and markets for support services, etc, as well as spin-off and new firm formation.
Good points, but unfortunately that only prompts another question: 100 years ago, Dayton benefited from similar agglomeration effects, did it not? Cash registers, automotive, aeronautical, etc... yes? Why did those effects vitiate?

And regarding the comparison with Indianapolis, well, is it not the case, that 100 years ago, Dayton was bigger than Indianapolis? What went wrong?
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Five Oaks
430 posts, read 447,451 times
Reputation: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
The 100-year lease of the Indiana Toll Road by Indiana Republicans was a massive hidden tax grab from northern Indiana to the benefit of southern Indiana.

<<Consider the counterfactual: What if the recession had not come in 2007 and driving levels exceeded initial expectations? Under the terms of the lease agreement, the private concessionaire has the right to raise tolls each year by the greater of 2 percent or the percentage increase in the Consumer Price Index, or the percentage increase in per capita gross domestic product. This means the concessionaire has the right to increase tolls by a minimum of 2 percent even when inflation is near zero ó meaning the company is getting a raise even when workers are not. And, if economic growth and inflation pick up as the economy continues to recover, the actual toll rate will be substantially higher....

The lease doesn't expire until 2081 and the up-front lease payment could turn out to be the most expensive loan in Indiana history.>>

http://www.indystar.com/story/opinio...iers/17888099/

While tolls continue to escalate on the Indiana Toll Road, with 5-axle truck tolls now up to $42, I-70/I-65 remains a free transportation corridor, having received substantial capex from the leasing of the Indiana Toll Road.

The billions raised where disproportionately spent in southern Indiana, including $700 million to extend I-69 through southeastern Indiana.

The tolls on the Indiana Toll Road, and on the Ohio Turnpike, where the Republicans are leveraging the Ohio Turnpike also to finance road construction throughout the state, increasingly are marginalizing the northern Indiana manufacturing economy. The toll is now over $81 using EZ pass for the entire length of I-90/I-80 through Ohio and Indiana.

Additionally, traffic is being diverted to parallel routes such as Route 20, increasing congestion and road maintenance costs, further burdening the northern Indiana economy.

The ongoing destruction of the northern Indiana economy due to the "Republican Toll Road" through Indiana and Ohio will certainly suppress the tax base and tax collections in northern Indiana.


OMG, yes! I commuted from NWI to the Notre Dame exit for a few years and it was $1.75 each way.
Now it's double and rising. Routes 20 and especially 6 are being destroyed by these trucks gouging the roads.
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Old 03-25-2017, 12:37 PM
 
45 posts, read 26,747 times
Reputation: 40
Dayton is in a really tough spot. All its major historic employees are gone. All of its iconic legacy companies were born 19th/early 20th century and their industries have lost importance or evolved into different businesses. There is little benefit or cache to start or move your business to the area. There is nothing here you can't find somewhere else. Dayton is too close to Columbus, Cinncinati and Indy to be a regional hub. Dayton needs to shrink and focus on cleaning up in core city from the most central 5 blocks on in order to start again and rebuild itself. There will be no quick catalyst to come in and save Dayton. There will be more hard times ahead before things will get better.
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Old 03-25-2017, 01:42 PM
 
6,815 posts, read 4,408,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicalmoe View Post
Dayton is in a really tough spot. All its major historic employees are gone. All of its iconic legacy companies were born 19th/early 20th century and their industries have lost importance or evolved into different businesses. There is little benefit or cache to start or move your business to the area. There is nothing here you can't find somewhere else. Dayton is too close to Columbus, Cinncinati and Indy to be a regional hub. Dayton needs to shrink and focus on cleaning up in core city from the most central 5 blocks on in order to start again and rebuild itself. There will be no quick catalyst to come in and save Dayton. There will be more hard times ahead before things will get better.
This assessment is a bit harsh, and might perturb some of the regulars here (let alone the boosters). Personally I think that as of 2017, Dayton has stabilized. There are sporadic "green shoots", for example micro-breweries and various new retail/dining options (there's a parallel thread on this subject). I am surprised (however pleasantly) that these establishments can attract a sufficient customer-base, but evidently they can. In another thread, I made the breezy proposition that Dayton reinvent itself by trying to build its airport into a national hub, or making WSU a nationally-prominent university; all lovely concepts, but purely theoretical, and hardly original.

Ultimately, Dayton will endure, as a middling city with middling options. But it can't materially improve unless the Midwest as a whole improves.

To answer my own question, posted above, as to "what went wrong" with Dayton in the second half of the 20th century: woefully inadequate cultural paradigms.
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Old 03-26-2017, 11:29 AM
 
45 posts, read 26,747 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post
This assessment is a bit harsh, and might perturb some of the regulars here (let alone the boosters). Personally I think that as of 2017, Dayton has stabilized. There are sporadic "green shoots", for example micro-breweries and various new retail/dining options (there's a parallel thread on this subject). I am surprised (however pleasantly) that these establishments can attract a sufficient customer-base, but evidently they can. In another thread, I made the breezy proposition that Dayton reinvent itself by trying to build its airport into a national hub, or making WSU a nationally-prominent university; all lovely concepts, but purely theoretical, and hardly original.

Ultimately, Dayton will endure, as a middling city with middling options. But it can't materially improve unless the Midwest as a whole improves.

To answer my own question, posted above, as to "what went wrong" with Dayton in the second half of the 20th century: woefully inadequate cultural paradigms.
I agree with everything you said. My intention wasn't to be harsh but I've always been a realist. I think Dayton will always be a mid sized city and shouldn't try to compete with Columbus, Cincinnati and Indianapolis. It should focus on its core city and enhance its assets there first. Some of the neighborhoods especially on the west side need to be completely gutted. They are unsalvageable. Dayton needs to figure out what it wants to be. I envision Dayton could be similar to Anne Arbor and Bloomington. A quirky, manageable, intellectual bastion with close access to large metros.
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