Moving to Ohio and considering Dayton (Columbus, Kettering: apartment, townhomes, neighborhoods)

[ohio_peasant]

Now that some time has passed since the OP has relocated to Centerville, it would be illuminating to see update on his perspective.

Originally Posted by Srszee

.. I'm stuck in Amarillo, Texas. ....

From what little familiarity I have with Amarillo, it's one of the places - so common in the American Heartland - which I'd actually rate below the Dayton region. In other words, Dayton is not some benighted epicenter of misfortune and blight; it is emblematic of its fellow ~1M square miles in the country's midsection.

Originally Posted by Rick Lantz

All of the suburbs you mentioned have very high property tax rates, its not just Dayton proper. ...

Cost high-COL coastal areas are almost invariably going to have higher taxes than in Ohio. If we exclude regions such as California or the Northeast, then we find that Ohio's tax burden is middling to high.

Gov. Kasich did much to reduce the state income taxes rates, especially for small businesses. Property taxes remain high, as a percentage of house value. By way of comparison, in my new locale in California, one might pay $12,000 year in property tax on a $1.2M house. The same house in the Dayton area is maybe $250K (higher in Centerville or Oakwood, of course; lower in Xenia, Fairborn and the like). Property taxes on the $250K house would be $4000-$5000, or even higher. So, in absolute dollar terms, the taxes are lower than in CA, but in relative terms, they're higher.

[wrightflyer]

Originally Posted by ohio_peasant

Now that some time has passed since the OP has relocated to Centerville, it would be illuminating to see update on his perspective.



From what little familiarity I have with Amarillo, it's one of the places - so common in the American Heartland - which I'd actually rate below the Dayton region. In other words, Dayton is not some benighted epicenter of misfortune and blight; it is emblematic of its fellow ~1M square miles in the country's midsection.



Cost high-COL coastal areas are almost invariably going to have higher taxes than in Ohio. If we exclude regions such as California or the Northeast, then we find that Ohio's tax burden is middling to high.

Gov. Kasich did much to reduce the state income taxes rates, especially for small businesses. Property taxes remain high, as a percentage of house value. By way of comparison, in my new locale in California, one might pay $12,000 year in property tax on a $1.2M house. The same house in the Dayton area is maybe $250K (higher in Centerville or Oakwood, of course; lower in Xenia, Fairborn and the like). Property taxes on the $250K house would be $4000-$5000, or even higher. So, in absolute dollar terms, the taxes are lower than in CA, but in relative terms, they're higher.

Until you factor different tax brackets for high income earners, which in CA can be 9.3% for high 5 figure and low 6 figure single filer earners and even as high as 12.3% coupled with COL and it ultimately depends on how comfortable you are with higher general COL staples like groceries, gas, insurance, etc. Ohio is state income rate of 4.00% max. Even the highest local municipalities like Oakwood only add an additional 2.5%. So, if I make six figures, I am saving money by being in Ohio versus Cali, dependent on where I am living, my marriage status and how I file. There is a reason why people are fleeing many parts of California for lower tax burden regions (not that you would catch me moving to Texas, Florida or Arizona). It's the economy stupid, and for an average family, the economy is their pocketbook.

(Side Note: IMO, that is a big reason Trump actually saw so much dissatisfaction in voters in 2020 was due to economic performance in the pandemic. Ultimately, I think he would have still lost, but it would have been much closer if the economy was better and he may even have won again. People are selfish and if a set of policies is impacting those people economically, that will override many other social or foreign policy factors. This is especially true with incumbents seeking re-election).

Then, like Ohio, California has a base sales tax rate, but higher than Ohio at 7.25% with many jurisdictions varying from .1% to 1% on top. There are also several jurisdictions that overlap, unlike Ohio, where most rural and suburban counties just charge the combined state/county level. I think Hamilton and Cleveland or Cuyahoga charge additional rates on top of state/county combined rates. 7.8% in Hamilton County due to 5.75% state plus 1.25% county and now .8% for Metro service funding. In Ohio, a vast majority of the counties are between 6.55% and 7.25% for sales tax rates. Only 7 counties run above that. Counties for Toledo, Dayton, Cincinnati, Columbus, Cleveland and Youngstown are six of those counties and only Cuyahoga sits at 8%.

One note, based on the data, California could potentially make sense at joint filers making at or under 96K a year. They pay a state rate of 6%. You'd still need a lower cost of living area to make out though. Another thing that people don't factor with CA property taxes is many people rent, especially in the Bay Area and LA or San Diego. It is just not feasible for many families to afford a home plus all the other expenses of child-rearing and family life. So, those people don't see the cost of the property tax rates, making the comparison moot in a lot of instances. That same family can actually own (outright or with a doable mortgage (and build equity if not appreciation - though appreciation has kicked upwards the last 3-4 years despite being rather flat or dropping between 2008 and 2018). That ability to hold wealth can be a plus in the long term. By long term, I mean 20-30 years of paying off a mortgage and having that money to plug elsewhere at the end.

Or you could just be like me and move to a state that has a budget surplus, 5% flat income tax, 6% flat sales tax, weather across all 4 seasons, beautiful green scenery with plenty of water and relatively low property taxes. This place is also known as Kentucky.

[brickpatio2018]

I drove the Dayton last fall and it's lovely. There is nothing Rust Belt about it. The downtown is okay but what I really liked is that the transition from downtown to the first nice neighborhoods is basically just a couple of blocks, starting with the University of Dayton. After that everything is nice right away. The suburb of Oakwood is charming and even though it's close in, it's a separate town and school district, thus being preserved. It's ideal for families, as is the next suburb Kettering.

As I drove south along the interstate towards Cincinnati, everything had a new feel to it. I loved that Dayton feels like a manageable size and very uncrowded.

Because Dayton's southern suburbs feel fresh and new, and Cincinnati's northern suburbs feel fresh and new (and because there is hardly any open space separating them), it gives all of southern Ohio a new, growing, safe, and prosperous vibe. They have a pleasant landscape and fairly moderate weather. If Ohio were to implement Texas/Florida/Tennessee-style right-to-work, zero income tax policies, this is an area that would take off similar to suburban Atlanta, Dallas, and Nashville.

[Jame22]

I’m back in Beavercreek after 8 years away. While it’s beautiful, I am slightly concerned about the culture. Seems like a great area for good ol’ military boys. It already feels much more authoritarian than my last state (Colorado) - I have to get a freaking hair follicle test for my next job which requires sitting at a desk. That really pissed me off and I’m not going to tolerate it when I take my next position. We’ll have to see if my wife and I can adjust. It scares me a bit, but if we absolutely hate it, we’ll be out in 3 years or so

It really is so beautiful here though. I don’t think I fully realized it while I was growing up. It’s probably the best place I’ve lived for local nature trails by far

[joe from dayton]

God forbid someone display the national flag, especially in a military town.

[ohio_peasant]

Originally Posted by Jame22

I’m back in Beavercreek after 8 years away. While it’s beautiful, I am slightly concerned about the culture. Seems like a great area for good ol’ military boys and just from driving around a lot of people seem to have the American flag shoved up their ass. ...

Again, this is nothing quintessential about Dayton, but instead, a truism nationwide, from Eastern Colorado until approaching the suburbs of Philadelphia. That's why it's called the "Heartland", the exceptions being Chicago and any sizeable city, or college town (Ann Arbor, Urbana-Champaign, ...).

There is also a correlation between the socio-political affinities that you cite, and what might be termed the "upper working class". By the latter I mean licensed tradesmen, military officers, certain kinds of managers, engineers and so on - to admittedly over-generalize. Contrast that with say Oakwood or Yellow Springs, or even Centerville, which is a bit more "creative class".

[Jame22]

Originally Posted by ohio_peasant

Again, this is nothing quintessential about Dayton, but instead, a truism nationwide, from Eastern Colorado until approaching the suburbs of Philadelphia. That's why it's called the "Heartland", the exceptions being Chicago and any sizeable city, or college town (Ann Arbor, Urbana-Champaign, ...).

I never said it was unique to Dayton. I’m just more accustomed to progressive metro areas at this point and coming back here can be a bit of a trip. I removed my comment about the flag because it was in bad taste.

I’m fully aware of the mindset of the average American in suburban and rural areas, I have family members on Facebook

[Natural510]

Originally Posted by Jame22

I never said it was unique to Dayton. I’m just more accustomed to progressive metro areas at this point and coming back here can be a bit of a trip. I removed my comment about the flag because it was in bad taste.

I’m fully aware of the mindset of the average American in suburban and rural areas, I have family members on Facebook

Yep, it was a big adjustment when I moved here from the Bay Area. I was not prepared for the top-down work structure where upper and middle managers in ****ty work environments try to make you feel like you should be happy for your low-paying job. Out West it’s more of a collaborative work environment no matter your position.

Outside of work, it’s more of a get-in-where-you-fit-in type of culture. It’s not all the same politically, socially, culturally but you can find the type of community which suits you, which is true for most of Ohio and the Great Lakes states. I can get Thai food, craft beer and Trader Joe’s here just like I did out West, and there are some quality concert arenas for a city this size, so I’ve really never had a desire to go back, especially with the COL difference.

[ohio_peasant]

Originally Posted by Jame22

..I’m fully aware of the mindset of the average American in suburban and rural areas, I have family members on Facebook

Originally Posted by Natural510

...Outside of work, it’s more of a get-in-where-you-fit-in type of culture. It’s not all the same politically, socially, culturally but you can find the type of community which suits you, which is true for most of Ohio and the Great Lakes states. I can get Thai food, craft beer and Trader Joe’s here just like I did out West, and there are some quality concert arenas for a city this size, so I’ve really never had a desire to go back, especially with the COL difference.

This is true. There’s Dorothy Lane Market, places to get gyros and so on. Mom-and-pop Chinese food restaurants. Even good Mexican food. The real discomfort that I felt while living in Ohio, wasn’t the dearth of amenities, but the lack of consonance with my Fellow Man. It just wasn’t “my people”. Beavercreek, which seems to be emerging as the subject of this thread, has McMansions which wouldn’t be out of place in Fairfax County, Virginia. But who lives there? That’s where the tensions emerge.

Local variations are also large. Even driving across say Kettering, the differences are shocking, between the part bordering Oakwood and the part towards Riverside. Northwest from the shopping-center with Trader Joe’s, it feels like the better parts of Pasadena, CA. On the opposite side of town, it feels like a set from a Public Television investigative special on the decline of Middle America.

But pervading it all, or nearly all, is a traditionalist cleaving to family and religious observance. This is a cultural conservatism, orthogonal to how we feel about taxation, environmentalism and other pressing political issues. Child-free people, atheists, the hard-charging entrepreneurial start-up types… would be out of place. Instead it’s a place to get married and to raise kids.

Over on the Los Angeles forum, where now I spend considerable time, there are frequent new threads, about such-and-such family moving to LA, looking for a certain environment. Kids, schools, safety, crime, backyards, clean air, plentiful water, OK commute. No mention of going to the beach in January. Of chess tournaments. Of places where to read one’s poetry. Of finding a community where people speak Farsi, or Armenian, or Russian. Without barbs or crass offense against either Dayton or Los Angeles, I can’t help wondering: why is this family moving to LA? Wouldn’t they be happier in Centerville or Beavercreek?

[TBideon]

Seems like economic opportunity balanced against Cost of Living is the driving force for all people, save for the super rich or super poor. Culture takes a backseat to necessities like schools and overall livability.