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Old 07-25-2009, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Dayton, OH
1,225 posts, read 3,878,053 times
Reputation: 525

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Quote:
Your comment "No one cares about that." is as wrong as saying "everybody cares about that." What you should have said is that YOU don't care about that. I'm sure you're not alone, but to say that "no one cares about that" is an ignorant statement. Just like it is wrong to say that all visitors want to go to places they know and trust - sure some do but others are indeed looking for a unique experience
What he means is the average person...or family.... has limited or no interest (or can't afford) the yuppie/hipster lifestyle consumption things listed in that post. In my real life (vs online life) I, like Nikolasposter, don't know anyone who would be interested, either. So its reasonable to make a generalization from my peers as to what interests folks.
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Old 07-27-2009, 04:23 AM
 
Location: Downtown Dayton, Ohio
116 posts, read 333,262 times
Reputation: 72
I'll go ahead and reiterate the title of this post:

"Downtown Dayton - The Urban ALTERNATIVE to the Suburbs"

Yes, while this may not include you - there are people looking for an alternative to life in the burbs. I am not here to try and fool anybody - there are plenty of different cities that have much more to offer than Dayton in terms of a vibrant urban lifestyle. But if you are an urbanite and have to live in the Dayton Region because of a job, family, school, etc. and/or you want to be part of a growing group of dedicated people working toward reinventing Dayton then there is absolutely no reason to avoid the downtown area of Dayton.

If you are happy in the burbs and do not care about the City of Dayton, then this thread is probably not for you.
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Old 07-28-2009, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Blue Ash, Ohio (Cincinnati)
2,786 posts, read 5,502,361 times
Reputation: 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy from Dayton View Post
nickolaseposter - you sure love to make generalizations, don't you. Your comment "No one cares about that." is as wrong as saying "everybody cares about that." What you should have said is that YOU don't care about that. I'm sure you're not alone, but to say that "no one cares about that" is an ignorant statement. Just like it is wrong to say that all visitors want to go to places they know and trust - sure some do but others are indeed looking for a unique experience. However, I do agree with you that downtown should be able to offer both.

As an urbanite I am not against having chains downtown, nor are any realistic urbanites I know. We just wouldn't want it to become all chains because the unique local character that independents offer is what attracts us. And the city government is not preventing chains from opening - hell, they've been bending over backwards to get a national grocery store but to no avail. The fact is that the demographics downtown are simply not at all where they need to be in order to attract national chains, retail, grocery stores, etc. You could give them free rent for the next 20 years and they still wouldn't locate here as they tend to locate in retail clusters like shopping mall areas. The developers of "power centers" (anchored by Targets, Wal-Marts, Home Depots and Lowes) tend to take an outer-ring approach rather than locate in the center no matter what city (you won't see these kinds of developments in most downtowns no matter how successful or vibrant they are).

One should also consider the fact that the city derives its tax revenue from income tax, not sales tax - so most economic development efforts on the part of the city are focused on attracting business that provides either higher-income jobs or hundreds of living-wage jobs, not retail-type jobs that pay little more than minimum wage. That isn't to say that the city turns away retail business but because of the tax structure they simply aren't as focused on attracting retail business. If the tax structure was changed and the city did receive tax revenue from sales tax then perhaps ED strategies would be different.

Bottom line - downtown could certainly use more restaurants and retail that attract more people, no matter if they are independent or chains. But the last thing downtown should do is try to be more like the suburbs because downtown can never beat or even match the suburbs at being the suburbs. Instead downtown needs more urban amenities that attract people from outside of the region looking for an urban experience. Chains can be a part of that, but they alone are not the answer.

The last part of your post was awesome!!!
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Old 07-28-2009, 10:03 PM
 
389 posts, read 888,143 times
Reputation: 154
BUT YOU AREN'T GETTING IT! Most people that use downtown now that are going to REALISTICALLY and FINANCIALLY support any growth, are mainly people from the suburbs. It is entirely ridiculous to say downtown will be entirely dependent on it's own urbanites.

Quote:
Instead downtown needs more urban amenities that attract people from outside of the region looking for an urban experience
Sorry. You aren't getting it. I know SO MANY people that work, or educate themselves downtown but never use entertainment/retail/restaurant options that appeal to them. They don't like the LIBERALIZED TREEHUGGING experience. My mother worked for Payne-Webber when it was downtown and they used to ask for longer breaks so they could drive to Vandalia or Centerville to eat. Why? There aren't alot of options downtown. You are trying to make me sound as if I hate the idea of small business. However, your quite wrong. I just think that anyone to want to realistically place a succesful small business that is high quality downtown would place it in the suburbs because the traffic isn't downtown. I mean, for crying out loud. They put statues downtown of fake people because there aren't enough REAL people down there!

The city council wastes money on pathetic things that aren't attracting business downtown. The city has to set itself apart. Right now, saying that we have strategic advantages, water, and transportational advantages doesn't really put Dayton on a businessman's list. They might consider us but no one is going to really want to go in downtown Dayton right now. If someone wants success down there, they are going to have to be willing to let commercialized, big businesses down there too. I mean, wasn't downtown the central hub for business pre-1960's when all of the major stores where down there???

And why do you think the Greene was such a success EVEN though there are already two other moderately sized malls within fifteen minutes of it???? It wasn't because they had interesting shops and beautiful architecture. Though that did come with it, it was because big retailers and national chains where all there at once.

Ballpark Village leaving Dayton was one of the most horrible developmental opportunities that downtown Dayton ever lost. That could have brought lots of traffic downtown.

I am not trying to bash on small businesses like the ones in Oregon District but it is just asenine to actually say they are doing well. They are only busy on the weekends. Thats it. Weekdays....you can forget any serious business. I think if alot of big retailers came downtown and restaurants, then Dayton would start to do very well. Most people like an urban experience! It's not an "alternative". It's very differet, but its just a much larger version of a small suburban village. The only real difference is walkability. Thats it.

Downtown will grow and I think that that is likely. But I think although people live in the surrounding suburbs they want a say in what happens as well, considering that alot of these people's parents and grandparents where the ones that built the city. And I don't think that putting a crap load of empty galleries downtown is going to push for any realistic growth. So quit trying to take downtown and act like you know what you're talking about. I think the suburbanites, quite alot of them wold love to live downtown, but people have ripped it from its former glory. They have made it very liberal and eliminate any consideration of conservatism. They have loaded it up with artistic venues but not ammentities that consider athletics, food, and business. I love downtown, and I strongly believe in Dayton, but not the way it is being run right now.
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Old 07-29-2009, 02:24 AM
 
Location: Downtown Dayton, Ohio
116 posts, read 333,262 times
Reputation: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickolaseposter View Post
...They don't like the LIBERALIZED TREEHUGGING experience...
...
They have made it very liberal and eliminate any consideration of conservatism.
Nuff said
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:44 AM
 
92 posts, read 306,120 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy from Dayton View Post
Nuff said
and from a high school student who can't even vote.

I'm starting to think that nickolasposter might be the son of former poster: fortheloveofdayton? maybe?

Last edited by prfcttimeofday; 07-29-2009 at 07:35 AM..
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Old 07-29-2009, 02:41 PM
 
1,245 posts, read 3,345,867 times
Reputation: 547
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickolaseposter View Post
So quit trying to take downtown and act like you know what you're talking about [Billy From Dayton]. I think the suburbanites, quite alot of them wold love to live downtown, but people have ripped it from its former glory. They have made it very liberal and eliminate any consideration of conservatism. They have loaded it up with artistic venues but not ammentities that consider athletics, food, and business. I love downtown, and I strongly believe in Dayton, but not the way it is being run right now.
Hmmm...... sorry I'm skipping out on the rest of your post, but your formatting is giving me a headache. So, I'll just dispute your major points, presented here.




1. First off, it is utterly stupid to tell the guy that lives in a loft downtown, is an urban advocate, and runs the only Dayton-specific forum on the internet that he doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to downtown's current virtues or how to go about improving it even further. If there is anyone pressing for this town, it is Billy From Dayton.


2. I don't know of ANY suburbanites that want to live downtown, rehabbed or not, due to their own preferences (mind you, they also wouldn't want to live in a penthouse on Fifth Avenue in New York, either). As Billy mentioned at the beginning of this thread, it is okay for them to have their own preferences, but for those that want the urban lifestyle, they can easily find it here.

There are many that want to live the urban lifestyle, but due to the fact that our region has a disproportionate number of math and science (and thus conservative) minded people, they tend to have a detachment from the city. However, there are still large, strong communities of people in the area that love the center city and are also liberal minded, like many of the frequent posters on the Dayton City-Data forum.


3. Ever heard of Seattle, Portland, Boston, San Francisco, NYC, or Chicago? These are probably some of the most liberal cities in the US, and also some of the most powerful and successful. It is definitely possible to run a clean, efficient, livable, and thriving city with liberal politics behind it.


4. Ever been to Paccia, Stars Lounge on the Crowne Plaza, Coco's, Thai 9 or Cafe Boulevard, not to mention the many other fine resraunts I left off? Ever been to a Dragons Game or Caresource? 'Nuff said about your arguement that the CBD lacked food, business, or sports.
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Old 07-29-2009, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Downtown Dayton, Ohio
116 posts, read 333,262 times
Reputation: 72
^prfttimeofday and Daytonatian - thanks for the back-up! Sorry nickolaseposter but I think you lost some cred with your last post. And btw, for those working in the Downtown CBD - here is an incomplete list of places you can walk to for lunch:

Michaels (Kettering Tower)
Carmen's Deli (Fifth Third Center)
111 Snack Shop
88 Club
Arcade Seafood
Bourbon Street Grill & Cafe
China Royal
Citilites
Cold Beer & Cheeseburgers
Dayton Women's Club
Flying Dog (Riverscape)
Flying Pizza
L&H Deli-liscious
My Favorite Muffin & Bagel Shop
Polo Grille (Doubletree Hotel)
Smokin BBQ
Super Subbys
Swishers
White Lotus Cafe (Thai and Burgers)

If chains and/or fast food are your thing:
Arbys
Chick-fil-A
Gold Star Chili
Great Steak & Potato
McDonalds
Quiznos
Subway
Roly Poly
Spaghetti Warehouse
Uno Chicago Grill

And a bit longer walk (one mile) or short drive (depending on where in the CBD you're working):
Blind Bobs
Brixx Ice Co.
Cocos
Dublin Pub
Fifth Street Wine & Deli
Francos
Jays Seafood
Jazzy Java Cafe
Second Street Market (several food vendors - Thrs/Fri/Sat)
Taqueria Mixteca
Oregon Express
Pacchia
Thai 9
Trolley Stop

If you find the need to drive to the burbs for lunch because there is nothing downtown, then you have issues.
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Old 07-31-2009, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Dayton, OH
1,225 posts, read 3,878,053 times
Reputation: 525
Another way of looking at downtown restaurants (downtown, not the Oregon), is when they are open. Here are the restaurants, fast food places, sandwhich shops and coffeeshops, arranged north to south, north on the top, with their hours of operation. A bit out of date since Swishers II is now Carmens and Terra Cotta Cafe is closed (and Im missing a place on Wilkinson across from the Federal Bldg):





...one can see this is a workaday market, and theres still enough going on downtown to support a strong breakfast/lunch trade.
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Old 08-05-2009, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Dayton Ohio
104 posts, read 271,510 times
Reputation: 70
Too funny, recently a woman from Berkeley CA who relocated to Dayton for a year or so eventually left when she & her partner split up. Her reasoning? Dayton was just too conservative for her! As my Mom would say "to each his own".
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