NCR Moving to Georgia? (Columbus, Cleveland: renting, home, layoffs)

[Clevelander17]

Originally Posted by johnatl

More sour grapes. Freaknik has been gone for years now.

I know that, but you have to admit it still was kind of funny.

Originally Posted by johnatl

I hate what NCR has done to its hometown, but let's get real here folks.

Get real about what?

[tgasper]

For all the (negative) attention the Mayor of Dayton garners for her glasses, hats and decisions, please keep in mind that Dayton's government is a strong City Manager/weak Mayor form...thanks to John H Patterson of NCR. McLin's position is largely ceremonial and the Mayor only counts for one vote on the City Commission (1 of 5).

It's very easy to blame our elected officials at the state and local level as being asleep at the switch. What doesn't factor into play is Bill Nuti's lack of professionalism and common courtesy to return phone calls or honor contracts. His panties have been in a wad since the first time the local paper wrote something negative about him. He seems to feel as the CEO of Dayton's only Fortune 500 (#466 at that) deserved better. He reneged on a contractual obligation to move to Dayton within a year. We haven't seen many signs of integrity in this particular individual.

NYC gave him a sweetheart deal to move some offices there. Georgia gave them sweetheart deals to move the rest. Maybe the farewell for Dayton & NCR will be easier this way, because as hard as it is to see them move away after 125 years, it would be harder to see them die entirely. They are not a healthy company, they are in a mature or dying industry and their primary customers are retail & financial - neither of which are doing well either. In 2005 their stock price was trading at $50/share (under Mark Hurd, now CEO at HP), it's now at $10 and has dropped since the announcement.

What many of you don't realize is how Daytonians have changed the world. Yes, there's the Wright Brothers and the airplane, but also more recent inventions like the magnetic strip on credit cards, the inkjet printer, the round dial on the iPod and the Boolean seach engine. Dayton has a strong culture of innovation, a strong work ethic and a passionate community. We are used to corporate leaders that are involved in the community and who make a difference. Maybe the times have changed on that side of the equation, but not on ours....we are engaged.

The issues of our urban core are the same around the country - white flight, leaving behind minorities. We are hardly unique in that regard. The following quote is from Great American Jobs Scam...

"Much of our prevailing ideology about jobs and land is a hangover from a manufacturing site location bias against cities and from a post-war consensus built around “white flight” from cities, concentrated poverty among people of color in older areas, and lots of subsidies for jobs out by the interstate – be they factory, office park or Wal-Mart jobs. That consensus has left us with a sprawling, dysfunctional built environment that is harming our health and our economic competiveness"

Don't worry about Dayton, we'll be fine. We view this as a pruning of a tree - you have to remove some of the old stuff to make room for the new. And the best part of Dayton is that our citizens can and do make a difference. It's not about the companies located here, it's about the people.

[GeminiGal]

Originally Posted by JefferyT

The corporate philanthropy will be the big hit here. I knew NCR gave, but wasn't aware until the recent news that they were the top contributor to CulturWorks..even during the post AT&T era. Losing this is going to hurt.

Another example is Lexis Nexis, which sponsors the Cityfolk Fesitval. If L/N goes away (which has been rumored) one wonders if that festival will survive.

Thats where corporate philantrhopy touches the entire community, by raising the quality-of-life via cultural contributions.

The question now is whether what remains of the local economy can still support the full range of visual and peforming arts things that used to happen here.

I have always wondered how this factors into relocating a corp HQ. NCR is kind of like the "big fish in the little pond" in Dayton and they have probably contributed heavily to the community for decades. Now that they are moving to suburban ATL, how will that philanthropy change and will those monies be spend now to help the company grow?

Also, since the announcement their has been alot of bantor here about the company being non-competitive and esentially withering away. It will take time, but I just don't see the evidence to say they are down for the count. The move to GA just may be a stepping stone to something bigger IMO.

[tgasper]

Dayton Daily News | Dayton, Ohio, News and Information

Here's the newest editorial on the situation with NCR's departure and our experience with Bill Nuti.

@GeminiGirl - I hope you're right about GA being a stepping stone to something bigger - it would be very painful for us to see NCR die. But you should be concerned about literally being a stepping stone to something else - because as long as Nuti is in charge, if someone else makes a better offer, you'll be in the same boat we're in now. He's not known for living up to his commitments - as this article will point out.

[Crew Chief]

JefferyT and Billy from Dayton, I apologize for the rant about regionalization when the topic at hand is NCR's departure from Dayton. TGasper, When all's said, I believe you're right. Losing NCR ain't the end of the world. Dayton has done great things and will continue to do good things. Right now we're in "rough waters". But eventually, the seas will calm...

BillyT, I've read a little about Louisville & Indy's regionalization and the articles were generally positive. Perhaps that's what we could strike here in the Dayton region; a regional effort without the smaller cities and townships losing their autonomy.

[Giesela]

Originally Posted by dayton_ohio

The appeal of Atlanta is low taxes, easy global transportation, and a large and cheap workforce. I can't imagine how they are justifying the move financially unless they are going to cut a lot of jobs or they are getting major tax incentives from Georgia.

In every struggling midwestern city losing a corporation has basically waived taxes and given every incentive imaginable to try to keep them (I'm from Michigan and watched a lot more move out than the auto industry), the Dayton Airport isn't global but its big enough and with all the unemployed here and close by I can't imagine they are having problems with a work force.
Its not just here, as said its been the same all over the older industrialized midwest for the last 20 years.

I think at least part of it is that intangible human being weakness; its all about the perception - you have to look like a winner to be a winner - i.e. have a business in the hot "it" place where all the other businesses are, a sparklier bustling city that's perceived as the place to be, new buildings etc. to show potential customers. Its part of business to show your company off as maintaining that new innovative cutting edge persona.

So what I guess I'm saying is that the Midwestern Values of conservative and sound business decisions made with thrift and responsibility to your community and workers is now dead. The old model that the Germans and Dutch brought, use it up, wear it out, remodel, retool, don't be too risky, worry about slow steady growth not taking over the stock market, take care of your own.
Viva the Hollywood California business model, or maybe New York.

Should have seen this coming when the CEO never even moved here. If he really had family issues in New York why did he take the job? Why did they give it to him? I'm sure it started then.

[tgasper]

A friend brought up an interesting perspective the other night. In our hey day, because of GM & Delphi (as well as others), and their strong union influence, Dayton became a high wage city. As a result, for a city its size, Dayton enjoyed a lot of wealth.

Disclaimer: I'm not a union basher - I can see their usefulness in some situations, I can see where they may have outlived it in others.

Many companies have shifted south because of the lack of unions and because of cheap labor. And often its' a stepping stone to their eventual move to Mexico or China. There will ALWAYS be cheaper labor elsewhere, heck, why don't they all move to Africa?

And there is something to be said for clustering. If Bill Nuti ultimately loses his job at NCR, because he is in NYC, chances are he'll be able to find a similar job there without having to uproot his family. Just like if someone loses a high tech job in Silicon Valley, there are plenty of other companies to look to for employment. If Nuti had moved here, and lost his job, he'd be facing yet another relocation.

I'm not entirely convinced the HEALTHY corporations move because relocations are costly and disruptive. Your best employees (who may not want to leave the area) jump first because they have other options. The ones that take the relocation package do so because often they don't have other options.

Personally, I'm not sure there is much allure in CHEAP labor, that implies to me a lack of QUALITY. I believe we have a very talented work force in Dayton because of the vast array of employers here - medical, academic, aerospace, etc. We have a high concentration of PhDs for a market our size.

What we do have is water, and if you think that isn't going to play out to be a major factor at some point, you're kidding yourselves. Atlanta & Phoenix especially are at a disadvantage in this regard.

So ultimately what I see here is a cycle. People moved north because they valued the workforce, now they're moving south because they value the cheap labor. Will people move back north for whatever combination of reasons again in my lifetime? I certainly hope so, for my kids and (eventual) grandkids sake.

In this case, I'm not sure how NCR will be able to create the number of jobs they promised Georgia in exchange for the $60m package. Many employees here will find jobs and stay here. NCR will use it as a RIF (Reduction In Force) opportunity, one in a line of many RIFs in recent history. They are not a growing company.

If I were Office Depot or Delta or UPS, I'd be all over the State of Georgia with my hand out asking for a similar package. When price wars erupt, which is essentially what tax credits & incentives packages between communities amount to, only the corporations will win. Georgia has started down a path it may very well regret.

[Clevelander17]

Originally Posted by tgasper

A friend brought up an interesting perspective the other night. In our hey day, because of GM & Delphi (as well as others), and their strong union influence, Dayton became a high wage city. As a result, for a city its size, Dayton enjoyed a lot of wealth.

Disclaimer: I'm not a union basher - I can see their usefulness in some situations, I can see where they may have outlived it in others.

Many companies have shifted south because of the lack of unions and because of cheap labor. And often its' a stepping stone to their eventual move to Mexico or China. There will ALWAYS be cheaper labor elsewhere, heck, why don't they all move to Africa?

And there is something to be said for clustering. If Bill Nuti ultimately loses his job at NCR, because he is in NYC, chances are he'll be able to find a similar job there without having to uproot his family. Just like if someone loses a high tech job in Silicon Valley, there are plenty of other companies to look to for employment. If Nuti had moved here, and lost his job, he'd be facing yet another relocation.

I'm not entirely convinced the HEALTHY corporations move because relocations are costly and disruptive. Your best employees (who may not want to leave the area) jump first because they have other options. The ones that take the relocation package do so because often they don't have other options.

Personally, I'm not sure there is much allure in CHEAP labor, that implies to me a lack of QUALITY. I believe we have a very talented work force in Dayton because of the vast array of employers here - medical, academic, aerospace, etc. We have a high concentration of PhDs for a market our size.

What we do have is water, and if you think that isn't going to play out to be a major factor at some point, you're kidding yourselves. Atlanta & Phoenix especially are at a disadvantage in this regard.

So ultimately what I see here is a cycle. People moved north because they valued the workforce, now they're moving south because they value the cheap labor. Will people move back north for whatever combination of reasons again in my lifetime? I certainly hope so, for my kids and (eventual) grandkids sake.

In this case, I'm not sure how NCR will be able to create the number of jobs they promised Georgia in exchange for the $60m package. Many employees here will find jobs and stay here. NCR will use it as a RIF (Reduction In Force) opportunity, one in a line of many RIFs in recent history. They are not a growing company.

If I were Office Depot or Delta or UPS, I'd be all over the State of Georgia with my hand out asking for a similar package. When price wars erupt, which is essentially what tax credits & incentives packages between communities amount to, only the corporations will win. Georgia has started down a path it may very well regret.

I think local services in places like Georgia and North Carolina could be close to becoming overwhelmed. Too many people, not enough tax revenues to provide the correct infrastructure. I've that it's already becoming an issue in areas near Charlotte.

On the flip side, here in Ohio, we probably have too much infrastructure for not enough people.

[DSmooth56]

And on a liner note it is not only more cosmo than Dayton but it;s metro area is larger than any city in Ohio.

[lived here forever]

Originally Posted by DSmooth56

And on a liner note it is not only more cosmo than Dayton but it;s metro area is larger than any city in Ohio.

Have you ever been to Dayton? Then you know nothing about us. Bigger is not always better. Dig into the history of NCR, and you will see how much of the formation of Dayton was inspired by the founder. And who cares about "cosmo". I have only been through Atlanta once ,and that was on the way to Florida. It took us so long to get one way, we changed our route coming home. Give me Dayton any day.