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Old 03-11-2010, 06:04 PM
 
Location: A voice of truth, shouted down by fools.
1,086 posts, read 2,692,838 times
Reputation: 937

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I am posting this in order to get a better read on the technology job sector in the Dayton area.

I assert that the area is podunk, bush league, a waste, and a place where IT careers come to die an ignominious death, unless - you are in the Department of Defense orbit and you come in with a secret clearance. Or you have some qualification that an outfit like Lexis needs and you are a "kept" corporate employee.

A poster in a recent thread asserted something that have heard for decades, either from Chamber of Commerce types, clueless managerial types who don't know any better, and people who are mesmerized by the word "tech" who don't know a floppy from a hole in the ground - that Dayton is a hotbed for tech hiring.

This person, tgasper, said that the area has "so many" technology jobs. I demand to know "where?" if this is the case, and why is almost everyone I have known locally who is an engineer or a programmer chronically underemployed?

Example: I helped my local client advertise for a plain old programming job a few months ago. The level of sheer desperation I sensed in some qualified people's responses was kind of shocking to me.

Here's my original posting to open the debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgasper
You bring up some good points - but there are so many high tech jobs in the area that are not being filled. We seem to have a skills mismatch.
I replied thusly:

If there is any "shortage" in Dayton it is of decent high tech employers, good places for engineers to build their careers, and also of reasonable (not moron level) management personnel. Almost every IT or programming related work environment I have witnessed in the area has been bush league, mediocre, and tending toward abusive.

So please tell me about these unfilled high tech jobs in the area. I have never, ever, EVER seen an abundance of high tech jobs here. I am in IT and I moved back to SW Ohio in the late 80s. It has always been nuclear winter around here for anyone in IT, at least among the people that I know. The damage to my own career has been one huge ongoing sacrifice I made in moving back here.

I have seen an artificial supposed "abundance" of DoD technology jobs. But many of those positions are with DoD contractor companies in the area that insist on stealing each other's cleared employees rather than funding a clearance application process themselves. So the jobs stay open.

In the commercial sector I have seen exorbitant pickiness and absurd levels of cheapness among hiring companies. This was the case even during the supposed "hot" Y2K and Internet era of the late 90s. Real prosperity never seemed to reach engineering and programming types in Dayton.

And in both sectors (commercial and DOD), the working environments I've witnessed for engineers in the computer related fields have been hideous - politically charged and filled with the attitude of hire and fire, scapegoating, or maliciously "reigning in" people that are just doing their jobs.

I've never seen a comfortable electrical engineer or programmer type settled in their career locally. I call the area "Silicon Valley Not" and I advise peers to stay the hell away from the region. Companies here are crap. I always felt that a blue collar person in a union overall does better in Cincinnati-Dayton than an engineering person.

Basically, when "tech" is mentioned in the region, you get told something like a certain online news and legal database company based in Miami township (a closed shop that mainly hires PhDs, grunt programming work being sent to India), WPAFB (see comments about behavior of base contractors cherry picking each other's employees - closed shop), and P&G (only hires college kids and then grooms them for lifetime careers.)

Read more: Why I'm leaving Dayton.
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Old 03-12-2010, 07:00 AM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
183 posts, read 632,653 times
Reputation: 49
I told you my story in the other thread (Why I'm leaving Datyon).

The brother of my best friend has a similar story except he's not as willing to move out of the state of Ohio as I am to find a decent tech job. He graduated with a degree in Computer Science from Wright State one year after I did and he's working for a temp agency (not in his field) in Columbus.

The entire tech industry in Ohio (not just Dayton) is really messed up right now. In terms of web and software development you either need 7-10 years of experience, be willing to take a temp job, or take way less than what you are worth (which may include taking the temp job).

Cleveland and Cincinnati are the 2 places in Ohio that seem to be hiring the most web and software developers. But even 90% or more of those positions are 6 month contract-to-hire.

The tech industry should be the one area that isn't being hurt by the recession as badly as other industries, but it's either really bad in Ohio, or the companies of Ohio are just taking advantage of the recession by seeing if people will take a lot less money than what they normally would.

All I know is that I had to get out of Ohio to get the job I have now. There was no way in the world I was going to be able to find the job I have now with the pay I have in Ohio. I love Ohio and would like to come back, but it's just messed up right now.
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:02 AM
 
Location: NKY's Campbell Co.
2,107 posts, read 5,063,894 times
Reputation: 1302
My father works as a web programmer. But his career in the area is probably the exception rather than the rule. We came here in '90 from NOVA on a government contract. Eventually, he transfered to a GMAC account which did well up until the last two years. I think what helps him is his seniority at work.

He used to work in an office, but now works out of our home. The one thing that worries me is what if his empolyer, HP, decides to move him to a different account, or worse, lay him off? Still, now with both me and my brother out of the house, travelling for work is an option, even if he doesn't like it.

My mother, who worked for the same company (EDS at the time), was layed off, but she wasn't a technical person. She was out of work for a while, but took a job as a department coordinator at UD, where she is much, much happier.

Here's what I am afraid will happen. If my father was to get laid off, I doubt he could find a job in Dayton (let alone Ohio) that paid even close to what he makes now (even after a pay cut enforced by HP). Now, I know he could find a job elsewhere, but my mother, and her new position at UD, would be gone. While I know this is a remote possibility, it still worries me, because my mother is so happy in her new position. Reading what I see here is not helping in those worries. But I guess you just hope for the best?

My final, unprofessional analysis of the area's tech industry: Below Average.

Last edited by wrightflyer; 03-12-2010 at 09:03 AM.. Reason: Addition
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Old 03-12-2010, 01:49 PM
 
1,247 posts, read 3,851,972 times
Reputation: 556
I'd say that the industry is still recovering from its boom back in 2000. The recession makes it suck worse, everywhere.

I would advise against working in the industry altogether, to be honest. Have you ever spent any time with "tech people" anyways? They are often irrational, unreasonable, mean, psychotic, socially inept, and unintelligent anyways, so I doubt ANY tech company has a good atmosphere at all.

So, our local rating? - On par with average. If you want happiness, find a job elsewhere. If you have no soul, then man, do I have a career field for you
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Old 03-12-2010, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Dayton, OH
1,225 posts, read 4,438,477 times
Reputation: 548
Hmm...I recall one of those economic development or government stats website had some data on employment growth/decline in this sector but I'll be damned if I recall it. Maybe need to surf around a bit to pull in some numbers here....
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Old 03-12-2010, 05:18 PM
 
Location: A voice of truth, shouted down by fools.
1,086 posts, read 2,692,838 times
Reputation: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daytonnatian View Post
If you want happiness, find a job elsewhere. If you have no soul, then man, do I have a career field for you
What is it? I'm so in.

Granted, IT and programming are dysfunctional career fields. My assertion is that Dayton, and to some extent Cincinnati, has worse (more toxic, worse paying, less chance of promotion or recognition) companies than anywhere else in comparable mid-market, non tech belts.

I posted this as a public challenge: if some boosterish type wants to talk up the abundance of technology jobs in Dayton, then be specific. Who's hiring, say, programmers or engineers, and who provides a great (interesting work, non politically charged) work environment to ALL qualified comers, and NOT just some tiny segment like the DoD circle jerk.

I say it's a freaking goose egg in Dayton.
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Old 03-12-2010, 07:01 PM
 
390 posts, read 1,044,453 times
Reputation: 154
I would say moderate. On a scale from 1-10, a 4.5. But with the increase in interest in it, I guarentee you that that number will be a 6 in 2015 and at least an 8.5 in 2020. Tech Town is the first step to bring a mass of high tech jobs downtown, and I think with UD's Business Incubator, Wright States growing Engingeering Department, Wright-Patterson Air Force Bases' increased developments and new multi-hundred million dollar expansion plans, and of course the growing Kettering Health Network, Miami Valley Hospital region, and Good Samaritan Health Partnership- yeah...there is alot of high tech oriented/related jobs for Dayton in the future. If you are looking for a place that might get underrated as a tech town but will actually have a quality base for it in the future, then I suggest Dayton.
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Old 03-12-2010, 08:13 PM
 
6,351 posts, read 21,489,973 times
Reputation: 10007
My friends laughed when I got a CDL. But I've had more steady employment than any of my friends with IT and other specialized skills. I truly feel for you folks in the IT/tech/IM arena. And, while I loved being in the USAF, I decided against taking my uniform off only to come back into the same environment in civilian clothes. Trucking CERTAINLY isn't for everyone. But I sometimes wonder if learning a trade might be as good a living as being able to work with computers.
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Old 03-13-2010, 07:32 AM
 
Location: Dayton, OH
1,225 posts, read 4,438,477 times
Reputation: 548
Some stats on Ohio IT employment for y,all.

These are for four occupations on the ‘
design side” of the sector, not system administrators and technicians dealing with hardware. The occupations are programmer, systems analysts, and two types of software engineers.

The stats are for the big seven metros, but I had to delete Youngstown out of some of the charts as data was suppressed for confidentiality.

First, the employment numbers by metro. Clearly Columbus dominates. Cleveland and Cincy, eh, probably related to the overall population and economic activity. But for the second tier metros of Dayton seems to have a specialization vs Akron and Toledo.



Relative percentages by occupation. As you can see Dayton specializes in the two software engineering occupations.



Average annual wage:



Then a set of charts showing the middle range of the hourly wage and the median hourly wage for the four occupations, comparing compensation by metro









All this does not show you a trend but just a snapshot & metro to metro comparison. Nevertheless interesting to see how Columbus is clearly the dominant IT center of Ohio, and the worst compensation is in Toledo and Youngstown. Probably no suprises there.
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Old 03-13-2010, 10:19 AM
 
Location: A voice of truth, shouted down by fools.
1,086 posts, read 2,692,838 times
Reputation: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by JefferyT View Post
Some stats on Ohio IT employment for y,all.
...
All this does not show you a trend but just a snapshot & metro to metro comparison. Nevertheless interesting to see how Columbus is clearly the dominant IT center of Ohio, and the worst compensation is in Toledo and Youngstown. Probably no suprises there.
Great work as always, Jeffery. Anecdotally, I know for a hard fact that Columbus is the best IT market in the region.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crew Chief View Post
My friends laughed when I got a CDL. But I've had more steady employment than any of my friends with IT and other specialized skills. ... But I sometimes wonder if learning a trade might be as good a living as being able to work with computers.
I completely agree with you, and kudos for working it out for yourself.

Techies and programmers can be quite stupid through considering themselves "above" working stiffs like truckers. The reality is that their professional egos make them clueless about how they are perceived by their employers - as just another labor pool.

I am a self employed contractor. I have stayed employed through aggressive negotiation. And by being much more effective at producing actual working code than the poor underachieving slobs around me in this area who allowed themselves to be beaten down by the system.

Whenever I worked for someone directly in this area I have literally felt like a "house slave" on a plantation.
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