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Old 03-12-2010, 09:23 PM
 
6,351 posts, read 18,903,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy from Dayton View Post
The Dayton Mall's slide is due mostly from retail/restaurant oversaturation caused by The Greene, and not because they have bus service.

Ironic that the same people who complain about "those people" who come in on the bus, and who fight to keep buses out of the burbs, are the same people that then complain about those "laze people" in Dayton that don't work. Folks, if lower income people that can't afford cars (most living in the city) can't find transportation to the service jobs they're most likely to be able to get (that have mostly moved out of the city), how do you expect them to get to work? No, I'm not getting all left-wing on you here; I don't like lazy punks who are capable of finding a job but choose to live off of my tax dollars any more than the rest of you. But I find it irrational to complain about all of the crime and poverty in the city and use that as a reason to have nothing to do with the city, all while expecting the city to house all of the poor people AND keep all social service activities concentrated in the city AND on top of that keep public transportation out of the suburbs.

Yes - the overwhelming majority of people who ride the bus are simply trying to get to and from work. This isn't about being politically correct - it is about having a clear perspective rather than one clouded by your own ignorance.
Billy, I resemble that remark! Yep, we're all afraid to admit it, if we're honest. We wanna be "diverse" and "forward thinking" but we want to have great schools where every kid is gifted and we meet AYP and the lawns are all perfectly manicured. And don't we know that we can't have it all if "those kind of people" move in or even, <GASP> come in on the RTA...
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Old 03-13-2010, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Dayton, OH
1,225 posts, read 3,882,105 times
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I always think of Dayton in terms of that old South African concept of the bantustan, where they gave these homeland areas to the blacks, but still used their labor, keeping them out of the white society. Or the way the Israelis deal with the Palestians (they adopted the bantustan concept of delegating local control to the Palestians, but still occupying the place, and instituting heavy security procedures).

The City of Dayton is seen as sort of a big bantustan, for the blacks, but also for the poorer whites, too, since this metro area does have concentrated white poverty. Since this is the US, not apartheid South Africa or Israel/Palestine we can't institute pass laws or security barriers (like what the South Africans and Israelis did), so pehaps one insitutes "influx control" (S African term) by limiting public transit.

I guess like South Africa, we also have 'black townships: The bantustan is the city and the black townships are Jefferson, Harrison, and Madison.
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Old 03-13-2010, 10:37 AM
 
6,351 posts, read 18,903,528 times
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I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I'm frustrated with the people that want to get away from Dayton, so they move out to the suburbs. But they bring along their bad habits and unsociable ways and don't appreciate or learn from what they see around them in the suburbs. I guess I've got a different view being married to a teacher. But when kids who have no desire to be in school and have no parenting going on at home go to suburban schools, they REALLY ruin it for the good districts that are hurt by the requirements of No Child Left Behind. I can appreciate "diversity" but the bottom line is that you go to school to be prepared for life and work in this country that has certain standards and expectations. Standard English is spoken and spelled properly. Texting, street talk and other than standard English is fine in casual settings. But when at work or other formal settings, everyone should be on the same page. It's wondeful to have your own culture and there's nothing wrong with letting other Americans appreciate it. But everyone else has their own interests and culture, too.
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Old 03-13-2010, 11:28 AM
 
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Chief, I agree with you totally. It's not just your surroundings that change people and their "ways". It starts with that individual and most people that move and want to get away from Dayton to the suburbs don't realize that.
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Old 03-13-2010, 12:26 PM
 
Location: A voice of truth, shouted down by fools.
1,086 posts, read 2,225,467 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JefferyT View Post
I always think of Dayton in terms of that old South African concept of the bantustan, where they gave these homeland areas to the blacks, but still used their labor, keeping them out of the white society. ...
All I can really add is to be a fanboy and express my absolute agreement with what you're saying. Well said! It's that Dayton meanness at work. Go live in your slum so I can feel superior to you as I live in my plat named "Prestige" or "Paragon" or "Pinnacle" something or other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crew Chief View Post
...I'm frustrated with the people that want to get away from Dayton, so they move out to the suburbs. But they bring along their bad habits and unsociable ways and don't appreciate or learn from what they see around them in the suburbs. ...
Most of suburban Dayton and Cincinnati is far less friendly and open than what I found the east coast to be when I lived there.

This is what is the matter with most Warren County suburban areas, in particular. There's sort of a barricaded siege mentality out here. Literally the "clinging to their guns and religion" type stuff, even if it's not literally those specific things as crutches. A personality like Mike Kilburn plays well down here because people here do not want to hear about anyone's problems, even their own.

I ruined and set back my career by moving back to this illiterate area for pressing family reasons and living here has damaged my social and economic interests in materially significant ways. I now pay this back and pay it forward by calling entrenched locals on their s+h+!+t. I want this area to be home because in many ways it's a great area but I don't tolerate stupid and intolerant people who live in denial and run away from problems. I'll make it work. That's my attitude.
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Old 03-13-2010, 02:38 PM
 
6,351 posts, read 18,903,528 times
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I guess I've just never seen the "barricaded siege mentality" here. Most of my neighbors are pretty accomodating. And I believe most of us get along despite some political & social differences. Maybe it's because I'm in my mid-50s and have been around the block a few times. I'm still liberal in that people always deserve a chance. if they work for you, take care of them, motivate them and pay them an honest, living wage. I'm not religious so I have a hard time with that in Conservatives; I DO NOT believe that religion belongs in politics. Anyway, I don't care who moves into my suburb and what they believe or enjoy as hobbies. But I DO expect them to raise their kids to respect others and to take care of their property (maybe don't buy a house that costs so much that you can't afford to take care of it...)

I don't feel superior to those in Dayton. I realize there are MANY good, educated folks there that, through no fault of their own, have lost jobs and homes. And that's sad and they deserve our help. But I have NO sympathy for those who refuse to get out of their seats and better themselves and whine that it's "somebody else's fault that I'm poor.
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Old 03-13-2010, 07:00 PM
 
Location: NKY's Campbell Co.
1,821 posts, read 3,895,213 times
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First things first, but when I refer to South Africa, I am refering to its metro areas, such as Joburg, Cape Town, and other major cities. I'm also going out on a limb here, so please be nice. Also, pardon the hijacking (of this thread), pun maybe intended.

Interesting that Jeffery brought up South Africa. This is only due to my professor's (who's British) studies and focus on the geography of SA. While my opinion is not one of someone who has studied the country, I can say a few words about it on top of what my professor told me. I'm not going to lie, South Africa can be a pretty interesting, beautiful, and sometimes dangerous place. You really need to have some street smarts there (even in the suburbs). You can't just go lolliegaging through the neighborhoods with your window rolled down. Why? Because you'll get car jacked! Crime is so bad there, they have a law that allows you to run a red light (assuming the intersection is clear) if you see something suspicious. The country is bleeding anyone who has the money and education to leave for better places. While that in itself may be similar to the Dayton metro's plight, we are not losing people at anywhere close to the rate of South Africa.

What I am trying to get across here is two things. First, Dayton and its surrounding suburbs are a far cry now, and still probably 20 years from now, from any urban or suburban area of SA. Crime is not to the point that we are walling up our properties behind eight foot high stucco fences topped with barbed wire. Second, while I understand class/racial division and baracades are still rampant in Dayton, Cincinnati, and probably large swaths of this county's metro areas, it is again nothing like South Africa's situation past or present. We are not forcing people to live in shanty towns and for almost 50 years segragation of public and private facilities has been outlawed. The fact that we have "black townships" is more out coincidence than any governmental policy.

Speaking of government policy, quick side note. I remember reading somewhere, but can't find the article now, that the SA national government was trying to ban gated communities. This was under the notion that the gates limit mobility of people, especially of the poor, which tends to be Africans. The gates, which tend to be in White, wealthy suburbs are needed, according to the local governments, for safety reasons. Remember, crime is a huge problem there, probably worse than even Miami's metro.

If you can't tell, I don't think comparing Dayton to South Africa is a great analogy. Don't get me wrong, Dayton has it's major problems, but they pale in comparison to South Africa. At least 30% of the Dayton metro's population doesn't have HIV/AIDS. Heck, that even goes to show how much better our local (and national) health care system is. Again, it's like comparing apples to mushrooms.

As for not my personal feelings towards shifting demographics in suburbs, I welcome it. Hey, if you can bring yourself up out of poverty by hard work than be my guest here, there, or anywhere. This country is built on those kind of principals, not on the kind that means getting a hand out for the rest of your life. It also, as Crew Chief mentioned, means using proper English in formal situations, going to school, not committing crimes, even ones as small as vandalism.

I am thankful for what my parents and family before them gave me. In fact, there is no word that can describe it, but from what I know, they did exactly what Crew Chief said when coming here from Poland and Italy. And guess what? It worked. Maybe not on the first try, maybe not even on the second, but if I am any testement to their hardwork, than that is something.
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:43 AM
 
32 posts, read 85,725 times
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A little off topic and I know someone brought this up before but this (Riverdesign Dayton, A Planning History.) would've been cool as hell.
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Old 03-14-2010, 01:22 PM
 
18 posts, read 56,773 times
Reputation: 16
Crew Chief,

If it's true that suburbanites in places like Beavercreek actively try to keep RTA out of their towns, thereby limiting the employment options of poor, carless Daytonians, that's an act of selfish, opportunity limiting cruelty to a very down and out population. So given that context, lecturing Daytonians about 'bad habits and unsociable ways' is quite striking. If the citizens of the city of Beavercreek are in fact keeping RTA out, they are actively, agressively fighting to limit the opportunities of the poorest of Daytonians, for their own selfish reasons. That's not just rude, it's cruel. That limits the standing of Beavercreekites (is that a word?) to lecture them on their texting habits and mode of speaking, at least in my world.
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Old 03-14-2010, 03:51 PM
 
6,351 posts, read 18,903,528 times
Reputation: 9895
^ Welll said, Sacheverell. I've always been an advocate of regional mass transit. I wish it went out into the suburbs more. And I'd love to have a bus line close enough to my home to ride downtown on. It's a shame that suburbanites feel that keeping the RTA out will reduce their exposure to "those kind of people".

I believe there SHOULD be opportunities for those who live in Dayton to come out to the 'burbs for better employment opportunities. But I also expect that those who do should bring with them a strong work ethic and manners. That way, they'll be able to improve their lot in life (and maybe be able to afford a car and a home in the 'burbs...)
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