Planning a move from TX to DE in the next 6 months......questions/advice? (2013, lawsuit)

[Pine to Vine]

Originally Posted by doctorjef

I would strongly advise against a move to Pennsyltucky. They will not get marriage equality anytime in the foreseeable future and I wouldn't place undue hopes in how the federal govt will recognize the rights of civilian gay and lesbian married couples living in a non-equality state. Moreover, even if the Feds were to recognize your marriage, PA will not. Hell, that reactionary Commonwealth won't even pass a sexual orientation non-discrimination bill.

Yes, PA will take a while to get marriage equality. Given it is the home state of the OP, I'm sure he understands the politics. As for your bolded comment however, time will tell. There are many ways this can play out, and surprising things may happen. If nothing else, the courts will be forced to rule on this, as it is simply an unworkable scenario where couples' federal marriage rights are invalidated simply by crossing a state line. I think this decision will be forced sooner than many people think.

Philly is of course very liberal - considerably more so than what I experienced anywhere in Delaware. As for that state of PA being reactionary, I'm not so sure. While I find PA politics conservative, I find the state less repressive than Texas, where I also moved from. PA will get there, slower than some but faster than others - that's its pattern. At least the conversation is set to begin and all signs are that the opposing governor may be on his way out come 2014: Bill to allow gay marriage in Pennsylvania to be introduced in the House | PennLive.com

I'm not advising the OP move anywhere. I'm sure he and his partner are savvy enough to figure this out for themselves. All I'm saying is watch how things unfold - we may all be (pleasantly) surprised.

[rdlr]

I can see Delaware being known as the Gay Marriage State, drawing those couples. It's already known as the Old State, with so many retirees moving here for the low taxes and cheaper living.

When all is said and done, I hate labels, but Delaware is moving in that direction.

[Don163]

My partner (soon to be husband) and I are also considering a move to Delaware, and also because it's one of the 13 states that allows marriage equality. Currently we live between Bedminster PA and Wilton Manors FL. Two places that couldn't be more different. Bedminster is rural, farm, Republican and Wilton Manors is very Democratic & arguably the gayest city in the US per capita. We're looking at the Lewes/Rehoboth area, an area we've vacationed in, enjoyed and felt comfortable.

[Pafrmboy]

Yes, I would love to be able to move back to PA, BUT.....as was mentioned, marriage equality will take some time and will most-likely have to migrate through the courts. The balancing act is, "do we have enough life to wait". (I always replace the word "time", with "life" to make it real). With my partner in his late 50s and me in my late 40s and with him having some cardiac health issues, waiting 10 years is not an option.
Yes, the current landscape created by the supreme court, has made lot's of problems and it will be interesting to watch the states and their reactions! However, I just want to play the cards I have and move on to other issues, challenges and opportunities in life.

If PA changes is laws in fairly short order....yes, we would be looking there. But DE is close to PHL and is also ideal. Besides DE has alot of other very good things we have found!!

[doctorjef]

I don't want to get into too much of a digression here that is so off-topic it may get shut down, but I want to point out some things about the DOMA ruling and its aftermath. The Supremes only struck down Section 3 - the section of the law that involved Windsor v. United States - and did not deal with Section 2, which thus remains in force. Section 3 was the section that dictated a purely heterosexual definition of marriage for federal government purposes. That's gone now. However, Section 2 allows each of the several States not to recognise same-sex marriages contracted in other States. To my mind, this is a violation of the full faith and credit clause of the Constitution, but the fact is that domestic relations law in the US has historically been left almost entirely to the individual States, and arguably this area of law falls under the competency of the States by virtue of the 10th Amendment's provision in respect to enumerated powers -- those powers not specifically given to the federal government by the Constitution, nor prohibited for the States, are declared to fall under the authority of the several States.

It's really a very sticky issue. Delaware, for example, does not permit marriages of first cousins nor provide for recognition of common law marriages, in contrast to many States which do provide for both. The age at which marriages may be contracted - with or without parental consent - varies widely from State to State. In actual practice, however, most of these inconsistencies in domestic relations law amongst the States have relatively little impact (divorce and custody laws are probably have a bigger impact). Marriages between first cousins are rare in this country. Legal age for contracting marriage is a temporary condition, and legal marriages involving younger adolescents are also a rarity. In most cases, a marriage contracted in one State won't experience automatic disabilities/nullity in another State.

In contrast, this is NOT the situation at present with same-sex marriages, and the gross inconsistencies and disabilities that this creates might indeed lead to lawsuits and court rulings that would lead to the general recognition of same-sex marriages throughout the United States.

However, I think the prospects are rather dubious for a quick resolution of these issues. The Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment might also be used to force universal State recognition of same-sex marriages, but I think the courts - overall - will be somewhat cautious about making very sweeping rulings, especially in certain federal judicial circuits. The matter is constitutionally complex and I think the courts will generally shy away from over-reach or rulings that could create a great deal of social reaction in less progressive/more conservative areas of the country.

Hence, I would view it as most prudent for married gay couples to remain domiciled in marriage equality States or only to move to marriage equality States, if relocating, at present. This is potentially even more of a consideration for older couples. I will be 59 this October -- not old by today's standards, but my dad died quite suddenly and unexpectedly of a heart attack at age 64. My spouse will be 58 in September. The truth is, any of us at any age could be taken from this life quite suddenly and should therefore do what we can to protect the interests of our marital partners, as well as to secure our mutual rights toward one another in the event of serious illness and the end stage of life.

The conclusion: my advice -- play it safe.

[ictulips]

Great advice and thank you for spelling it out.

[Pafrmboy]

DoctorJef

Yes....my thoughts exactly! "The truth is, any of us at any age could be taken from this life quite suddenly and should therefore do what we can to protect the interests of our marital partners, as well as to secure our mutual rights toward one another in the event of serious illness and the end stage of life".

People think that they will live forever and I for one being in healthcare, know that is not the case. He have to plan for the worse, and hope for the best , as my Grandma used to say.

We have a tangled mess with this marriage issue and it will take quite a bit of intervention to clear it up. Something I'd like to watch from the sidelines and not be involved in the game in my old age!

[alwaysthisgirl]

It is exciting to hear from people who want to move to Delaware because of the marriage equality issue. My partner and I have been together for over 20 years and we moved from Philadelphia PA to DE for my job. We moved to southern Delaware and bought a property with almost 2 acres, a large driveway and big polebuilding (3 car garage) which we finished into a business a decade ago. It was very affordable at the time, the cost of living was very much less because of low taxes, and we expected to live here forever. BUT!!! We had no idea how different the culture would be "below the canal" and NOT in Rehoboth (beach area is ridiculously expensive and no jobs). So we are probably living in an area that is more like your PA area, and as we age (50's and 60's) it is less and less comfortable to live in a big property with too much grass in a decidedly un-gay friendly space. Also, the recession cost me my job and made our business unprofitable. Now I am working in Philadelphia and doing the very long commute every day.

We are in the process of fixing up our downstate place so we can put it on the market, and looking to move north, closer to my family in PA and hers in NJ. Sorry, PAFarmboy, I wish it were closer to where you need to be - it's exactly what you would like, but for the culture clash. And I can testify that the commute is a killer.

I was all set to move back to Philly or NJ 'burbs if I could find something we could afford. Then DE passed marriage equality - a huge shock (pleasant one) to me and my partner. Then DOMA decision and it blew my mind. I now don't feel like I can move to a "non=equality" state for the sake of my partner and myself.

DE is still more affordable, so we are looking around Wilmington. We really would love to move to either PA or NJ, closer to our families, but I agree with Drjef and others that it is not "bet the farm" bet-able that either state will roll back the more anti-progressive forces. I work in a somewhat political field, and I don't see Harrisburg moving that way. That is a shock, too, that Delaware would be ahead of my home state.

So my posting here is dual purpose - to say hello to you two posters, and to look for a new place we could move to either in the city of Wilmington or near to trains into Philly. I would look at Claymont but I am afraid of safety concerns. Now my task is to get an understanding of where we could live and still be safe as two women & a dog. I lived in a twin in northeast Philly for years, if that helps.

Price - somewhat depends on what our current property is appraised at. Ideas, feedback? Thanks in advance.

[doctorjef]

North Wilmington (so-called) should be friendly and affordable for you two.

[alwaysthisgirl]

Thanks. Drjef. I am scanning the area, hope to be able to do this transition in 3-6 months, depending on how quickly we can do what we have to do in our current home.