Delaware and the Mason-Dixon Line (New Castle, Camden: house, babysitting, shops)

[ptsum]

Originally Posted by Howest2008

Refresh my memory didn't Washington D.C. and Baltimore and Delaware fight on the side of the Union (Northern States) that would determine if they are Northern or Southern States don't you think.

Being a native Marylander and most of my ancestors are Southerners,I've always considered Maryland to be a Southern State.During the War of Northern Aggression,Washington, DC because of its location and being the capitalof the Union,Lincoln was not going to allow it to become part of the Confederacy,Maryland was put under martial law and habeas corpus was suspended during that period of time.After Abraham Lincoln had been elected president and was on his way to Washington DC, he had to hide in the train that was going through Baltimore on its way to Washington DC. When Union troops were on our way to Washington DC,from Massachusetts I believe,the citizens of Baltimore became outraged and attacked them,martial law was declared and the Mayor and the City Council of Baltimore was arrested and held in Fort McHenry until the end of the war, so I would say Maryland was a Southern state,had it not been under martial law.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Mom2Feebs

I was raised in Texas, but born in Wilmington, DE. It is HARD to convince my husband (a Texan also) that Delaware is technically below the Mason-Dixon line. We joke about it quite a bit, because he loves to call me a Yankee since they did fight for the Union.

In my February edition of Southern Living Magazine, they had an article about Delaware! I was very excited and of course showed my DH right away. He said I must have paid someone to do it LOL!!

LOL As a fellow Texan, I think I would enjoy visiting with your husband!

But seriously, as a layman of Southern studies, I have enjoyed reading this thread. As someone else alluded to, the Mason-Dixon line was never intended to be the "dividing line" between North and South, but a survey line to determine the boundaries of Pennsylvania and Maryland. In later years, it was used as a division between the so-called Free States and Slave states, and from there began to evolve, so to speak, into American vernacular as seperating the North and South.

The U.S. Census Bureau uses it as a geographical determiner (is that a word? LOL) in its division of the United States into four major regions, with Delaware being considered part of the South in this realm.

On a related tangent, Mom2? It is that Census Bureau "South" that Southern Living Magzine uses as its defintion. And I can't resist adding that, for that reason, your husband may be on to something, as a magazine will naturally want to appeal to the broadest segments possible in order to increase its circulation and profits! (Just funnin' of course! )

But in fact, here is a pretty good link that gives different maps and different definitions and explanations of what constitutes "The South":

Southern United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now, speaking as a native Texan? I never considered Delaware part of the South at all. I am almost certain most native Texans feel that way as well. I want to HASTEN to add though, that that is NOT intended arrogantly nor condecending. Just an observation based on my experience and outlook.

Heck, truth is, there are a lot of folks in the "Deep South" who don't consider Texas part of it either...nor Virginia, and some exclude Arkansas as well! Of course, the same "purists" will usually grant the above states "kinfolk" status, but not quite that "immediate family" part of the tree! LOL

At the same time, many Texans think of themselves as Texans first, anyway. Yet, if asked to give a regional affliliation, the majority will say "South" and consider themselves Southerners. And THAT point really leads to what I always considered a very good definition of where the South really is. That is to say, where people CONSIDER themselves to live in the South and consider THEMSELVES Southern.

A great study, spanning 14 years, was done on this subject. It was part of the Southern Focus Poll and the results were as follows:

Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses)

Alabama 98 (717) South Carolina 98 (553) Louisiana 97 (606) Mississippi 97 (431) Georgia 97 (1017) Tennessee 97 (838) North Carolina 93 (1292) Arkansas 92 (400) Florida 90 (1792) Texas 84 (2050) Virginia 82 (1014) Kentucky 79 (582) Oklahoma 69 (411)

West Virginia 45 (82) Maryland 40 (173) Missouri 23 (177) Delaware 14 (21) D.C. 7 (15)

Percent who say they are Southerners (percentage base in parentheses)

Mississippi 90 (432) Louisiana 89 (606) Alabama 88 (716) Tennessee 84 (838) South Carolina 82 (553) Arkansas 81 (399) Georgia 81 (1017) North Carolina 80 (1290) Texas 68 (2053) Kentucky 68 (584) Virginia 60 (1012) Oklahoma 53 (410) Florida 51 (1791)

West Virginia 25 (84) Maryland 19 (192) Missouri 15 (197) Delaware 12 (25) D.C. 12 (16)
************

Ok..I am finished with my 2 cents worth! Again, great thread!

[beachanyone]

So after almost 7 years in the WV/MD area I finally know why we dont "belong"!! We are snotty, rude, liberals from Jersey!!
You have got to be joking.

Tabitha

[Mom2Feebs]

Originally Posted by Terrapin2212

Wilmington is too close to Philadelphia and is part of its sphere of influence. Don't you fly out of Philadelphia's airport? I also know a lto of people living in Wilmington commute to Philly. So maybe it used to be southern but its seen a lot of newcomers that have transformed, kind of like South and Central Florida and Northern Virginia, and the Baltimore-Washington, D.C. area.

I've never been to Philadelphia's airport, though I have been to Philly a number of times. Like I said, I was raised in Texas (we moved to Houston when I was just 2) and still live there. I am a proud Texan, though not a native!

[anniebleu]

Texas, I think you're right to reject us Delawareans as Southerners! Very interesting post.

Terrapin, yes, lots of transplants here. We learned long ago to fly out of BWI though. From Dover, it's a far more pleasant trip than into Philly, though you do have to worry, during the warm months, whether or not you're going to get stuck on the Chesapeake Bay Bridge spans--going, returning, or both.

Maybe we're neither Southerners nor Northerners. Delaware, as State of Confusion. I hear Delly, native-born, saying she thinks of herself as Southern, but I can't recall that being the case with any other native born Delawarean we've talked with, in our 30 years here.

Now I do know a true Southerner here in Delaware, but she's from Kentucky! She has the accent, the food and drink preferences, the cooking style, and an extra bit of that Southern charm.

Tabitha, I am a NJ native--and I don't think (???) anyone in this state has ever held that against me.

ptsum, we had a Maryland family branch (greater Baltimore area), but they were Quakers, so very anti-slavery, and considered themselves Northerners.

I agree that this has turned out to be an interesting thread!

[ptsum]

Originally Posted by anniebleu

Texas, I think you're right to reject us Delawareans as Southerners! Very interesting post.

Terrapin, yes, lots of transplants here. We learned long ago to fly out of BWI though. From Dover, it's a far more pleasant trip than into Philly, though you do have to worry, during the warm months, whether or not you're going to get stuck on the Chesapeake Bay Bridge spans--going, returning, or both.

Maybe we're neither Southerners nor Northerners. Delaware, as State of Confusion. I hear Delly, native-born, saying she thinks of herself as Southern, but I can't recall that being the case with any other native born Delawarean we've talked with, in our 30 years here.

Now I do know a true Southerner here in Delaware, but she's from Kentucky! She has the accent, the food and drink preferences, the cooking style, and an extra bit of that Southern charm.

Tabitha, I am a NJ native--and I don't think (???) anyone in this state has ever held that against me.

ptsum, we had a Maryland family branch (greater Baltimore area), but they were Quakers, so very anti-slavery, and considered themselves Northerners.

I agree that this has turned out to be an interesting thread!

Well,Thank you ma'am, in doing the genealogy of my family I found that we didn't own any slaves either,They were farmers, tradesmen, and coal miners, in southwestern Virginia,Tennessee, and Kentucky,we just had large families.

[anniebleu]

ptsum, I didn't intend to imply that Southerners were all, at any time, for slavery, and that Northerners weren't. As I understand it, some Northerners did have slaves--or the equivalent.

My point, which was probably poorly expressed, was that our Marylanders were Quakers and that they, like other Quakers, were anti-slavery. I could have (perhaps should have) used a separate sentence to state that they considered themselves Northerners.

Annie

[ptsum]

Originally Posted by anniebleu

ptsum, I didn't intend to imply that Southerners were all, at any time, for slavery, and that Northerners weren't. As I understand it, some Northerners did have slaves--or the equivalent.

My point, which was probably poorly expressed, was that our Marylanders were Quakers and that they, like other Quakers, were anti-slavery. I could have (perhaps should have) used a separate sentence to state that they considered themselves Northerners.

Annie

No harm taken ma'am, (as I tip my hat to you) it's just that I wanted to let some of these Yankees ( lol ) here know that the majority of us Southerners did not own slaves nor were we in favor of it. And from one Southerner to another, y'all have a fine day now.

[wavehunter007]

Originally Posted by mike0421

To me, the Mason-Dixon line is just that, a line. Much the same way nations in Africa or the Middle East were re-defined in post WWII, without considering cultural differences are not really defined by a surveyor's line, but rather, natural boundaries. That is to say, the Delmarva Peninsula probably has a separate culture, not to mention dialect, than say the mainland section of Maryland, because it's boundary is more of a natural one, in this case, the Chesapeake Bay. In modern times, transportation can be considered a good arbiter of what constitutes a cultural 'fault line'. To that end, consider I-95, through the northeast corridor. The closer settlements are to this road, the more politically liberal they tend to be, because this is where the big cities are located. Boston transitions to Providence, to New Haven to Fairfield County CT, Westchester NY, NYC, to NJ, then Northern Del, Baltimore, then D.C. Consider all these places. If one were to move from one of these places to another, they would likely feel more comfortable than say if someone moved from Providence to Sussex County Delaware, or from Hancock MD (at the western end of Maryland) to Newark NJ. So, if there is a modern day Mason-Dixon line, I'd reformulate it as a buffer zone down the I-95 corridor. The further you stray from this road, the more 'confederate' it will feel, in contrast, the closer you are, the more 'union' or urban. After all,that's originally the idea of the Union vs the Confederacy, urban or centralized government asserting itself against the more decentralized or agrarian economy of the south. Today it's a little more realigned.

I wonder if this makes any sense to anyone.

IT makes sense to me - and you'll be happy to know it's also a demographic fact. I construct maps for a large East Coast mapping company, we map population, climate, marketing...etc.....and your are totally correct! Seems you are paying attention to the world around you!

Also, old ways die hard. The North vs South thing is as old as dirt (and as dead). There are cities like Atlanta, Raleigh, Richmond...etc that are far more liberal - by far - than some poor rural towns up in New Hampshire or Maine, by the same measure, what's left of the the old yankee's in MA say, or areas of southeast Pennsylvania can be more far conservtive than some place in metro Atlanta. A poor rural area in eastern Connecticut and east of I-95 in South Carolina - have much more in common - than they would with two wealthy urban people from NYC or Columbia.

The new Mason-Dixon line is one of economics and geography.

.

[Frankie117]

Seems people are confusing the Geographic South with the Cultural South. Delaware (along with the other border states) left the Union, but were unable to join the South because of their proximity to the North (all border states showed majority support for the South, but it was not possible to fully join them, Missouri became bitterly divided during the war).

Urban areas in the South have always had different political views than the surrounding areas due to a generally broader mix of people (even then they had transplants, lol!). However, during those times there were only a couple of Southern metropolises.

Now, Maryland is a geographically Southern state, however much of it shows more Northern characteristics due to proximity to larger cities, and some of the first suburban waves to sweep the country in the Post-WWII era (I suppose the rest of the South will probably share the same fate soon enough). Most every Southern state is beginning to lose a lot of culture due to the suburban gentrification that plagues this country. It's only a matter of time before something like watered-down Southern culture that already affects North Carolina, Maryland, and Coastal South Carolina will spread throughout the South (hmm...I can see why people would dislike transplants now).

The term "the shrinking South and dieing Dixie" is used to describe this phenomenon, I think a book was even written about it.

Oh and slave-holders in the North and South alike were only the wealthy elite, which were very few in number. It was the appeal of being an independent nation that drove Southerners (both black and white who willingly fought for the South) to fight and give everything for the cause. Winners of wars write the history books, which is probably why slavery is the scapegoat on this one.