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Old 12-09-2009, 09:32 AM
 
11 posts, read 29,870 times
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Cant wait to retire - didn't mean to depress you but it might be more depressing if ya got an unexpected (and unwanted) surprise after moving to your dream house. However, as long as the community residents includes lawyers and accountants (as members) nothing cannot be overcome. Its just annoying.
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Old 12-09-2009, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Delaware
388 posts, read 993,038 times
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Lecal - yes, you did bring up some depressing but unfortunately valid points to consider. You obviously have researched these items quite well. Not to put more burden on Charley as he has done yeoman's share already, but perhaps he could ask some of these questions on his next visit at the end of this month. I know some of these questions I will be asking on our next visit but that won't be till April. If we could prevail upon him and any others to ask these points to the various communities we are all interested in, then we would all benefit. This board is known for its initiative!
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Old 12-09-2009, 10:39 AM
 
19,922 posts, read 11,003,885 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little eggplant View Post
Not to put more burden on Charley as he has done yeoman's share already, but perhaps he could ask some of these questions on his next visit at the end of this month.
Thank you. I don't mind carrying a part of this one. I am very happy to provide any assistance that I can for those in need of information.

These are tough issues. I'm going to separate them into those where I know (or suspect) the answer and those where the communities will need to be asked. I'll try to be brief.

In any community, the HOA fee (including clubhouse "dues") is based upon a budget that includes all of the shared community charges, which can include landscaping; snow removal; clubhouse electric, gas, water; pool contracts; legal and administrative fees; insurance; alarms and monitoring; recreational supplies and equipment; programs and more. That amount is totalled, divided by the number of homes in the community and then each homeowner pays his/her share. Until the community is filled, the builder traditionally picks up the cost for the empty homes.

No one would be able to tell you what the costs will be 10 years down the road. You can project based on the past ten years, but that's not always accurate. Water is based on usage and sewage is calculated by the municipality (I believe).

Some land lease communities discuss an annual cap, but fee simple communities which with I've checked do not talk about a cap. If the HOA is good at containing costs and finding economical ways to do things, the annual increases will be lower than other HOA's where the board members are not as good.

Now, as for the questions that will need to be referred to the various communities:

[1] Can the clubhouse be sold to a third party? If so what are the homeowner's rights (if any)?

[2] What happens if the Developer decides they do not want to maintain the owner's property (i.e. lawn care)?How are the dues determined (i.e. lawn care)?

[3] If the developer decides to abort the project what fees would be charged the homeowner to receive the same services as are offered at the time of signing the contract (to purchase)?

[4] And if the developer did abort the project what affect would this have on water and sewage service?

Now, I can ask Roesville and Champions Club because I think I have a good rapport with both sales folks. Do you think I separated the issues appropriately? If so, I can forward the four questions and we'll see what happens.
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Old 12-09-2009, 10:44 AM
 
19,922 posts, read 11,003,885 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley View Post
In any community, the HOA fee (including clubhouse "dues") is based upon a budget that includes all of the shared community charges ...
By the way, I have the 2008 budget for Roesville and if anyone is interested to see what it looks like, if you have access to a fax machine, send me a direct message or email with your fax number and I will fax it to you. My fax machine is on it's last legs but I think I can get a few more pages sent out. (Can't receive anymore )

Note: This offer is only for those currently in this conversation for the next few days. If you happen on this message weeks, months or years down the road, sorry about that.

Last edited by Gone-2-Beach; 12-09-2009 at 11:21 AM..
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Old 12-09-2009, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Delaware Native
9,672 posts, read 14,140,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lecal View Post
Cant wait to retire - didn't mean to depress you but it might be more depressing if ya got an unexpected (and unwanted) surprise after moving to your dream house. However, as long as the community residents includes lawyers and accountants (as members) nothing cannot be overcome. Its just annoying.
You hit on it, Lecal. The word is ATTORNEY. Questions can be asked, and answers will be received, all in good faith, I'm sure. But, #1 on the list should be to have a local real estate attorney, of your choice, review the subdivision you've chosen, which would include covenants, restrictions, homeowners association docs (ifs, ands, and buts) subdivision plan, future expansion and phases planned, utility easements/infrastructure (existing & proposed), zoning of adjoining land and legally permissible use, and the builder's blank contract of sale. This should be done before you become emotionally committed to a really nice model, and all the bells and whistles that go with a subdivision. Finally, have the attorney review your completed contract of sale before you sign. There's peace of mind if an expert is consulted, and we have some experienced, professional attorneys in the state who research these questions for their clients, daily. These local attorneys know all of the subdivisions, and the developers. First things, first.
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Old 12-09-2009, 12:38 PM
 
11 posts, read 29,870 times
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Little eggplant - agree, the board has alot of initiative. And a saavy bunch of members.

Charley - sounds like you have been asking most of the questions of each of the communities you've visited.

Rdlr - Also sounds like you researched or have been involved with these other aspects being discussed. Great advice to consult with an attorney first. But I sure would like to hear from someone who might have been insured that the i's were dotted and the t's were crossed before signing that contract. And then kaboom!

The rather thick document that I was given (I believe unintentionally) from the Independence community contains everything you referenced. In fact, it is highlighted in such excruciating detail that is scares me.

They own the clubhouse but if you want it then you buy it.

They maintain your lawn (according to partial fees assessed). However this big document that I have been reading states that the homeowner is responsible (completely responsible) for lawn maintenance.

The HOA is in charge of management of the homeowners property, BUT only after ALL the properties (not 80%) are sold.

A certain number of properties (though part of the project) have been reserved for the Developer to do with however the Developer desires. This ensures the Developer always has enough votes to control the rules.

The Developers properties are listed as a class B property, the homeowners class A. As long as the Developer owns one (just one) class B property the Developer is in charge.

The HOA cannot charge the Developer for Developer owned homes.

The Developer can do anything the Developer desires with the Clubhouse. Meaning that if the Developer decides it would be more profitable to have a three-ring circus, then the Developer can convert the clubhouse to a three-ring circus. Including allowing right-of-way across homeowners lawn to reach their destination. Or the Developer can turn the clubhouse into a dancehall.

If the Developer decides to turn the clubhouse over to the HOA it will be only if the the Developer will recapture all costs to-date (i.e. from the inception of the community to the date turned over to the HOA).

The Developer however can sell the clubhouse to anyone the Developer desires (if there is one desenting vote among HOA members concerning purchasing the clubhouse). I guess if the Developer said the charge would be 2,000,000 dollars and some homeowners were not happy then the Developer could sell the clubhouse to someone like Gold's Gym (not necessarily a bad thing).

To me this all comes under the heading of caveat emptor. I do not believe the law is that specific regarding the protection of us older folks (remember this is supposed to be a 55+ community). The document seems to suggest that the Developer has access to a really good attorney or attorneys.

Originally I was curious if other community covenants, etc. were that specific. Is anyone aware of any communities where the clubhouse did not belong to the HOA untill paid for by the HOA.

Don't like to pester people with these questions (my wife insists that I am overly concerned). But you know the old saying - fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...

I have gone beyond twice.
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Old 12-09-2009, 01:22 PM
 
Location: Delaware Native
9,672 posts, read 14,140,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lecal View Post
Don't like to pester people with these questions (my wife insists that I am overly concerned). But you know the old saying - fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...
I have gone beyond twice.
I certainly don't think you are overly concerned, but smart.
I do not sell real estate, but yes, I am 'involved' in these processes, and have been for a number of years, in addition to being a native of Delaware. First and foremost, I learned to never give advice where these matters are concerned. That's an attorney's job, and they know best. No disrespect to those trying to root-out answers verbally from sales people, but the tiny investment in professional advice is worth a world of headaches, IMO, and your answers are straight from an unbiased third, party looking out for your best interests.
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Old 12-09-2009, 03:24 PM
 
11 posts, read 29,870 times
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Rdlr Thanks for your comments but if I was smart I would be the one developing the site rather than asking about potential problems.

However, I took your advice and clicked on an ad by Google (one of those neat little links that
appears on these pages) entitled: Ask a Lawyer Online: HOA

This was the response to a question involving HOA rights.

Unfortuately, there are no restrictions placed in the law for this problem with HOA's and the HOA is governed by the bylaws of the association and not the law. Thus, your only recourse is through those bylaws in appealing the matter, but if they properly enacted the change in accordance with those bylaws, I am afraid you have no recourse and this has been a very common complaint amongst those dealing with these types of resort communities. The problem is that these types of associations the board holds all the power and as long as they operate in accordance with the bylaws the poor homeowner is stuck unless they can get a bylaw passed through the other members to prevent it.

The last sentence says it all.

So I guess if there is a problem with the Developer my best recourse is to use my Uncle Giuseppe as a communicator to convince the Developer that the Bylaws should be changed (actually Charley sounds like he would be adept at this).

Of course, if we made a concentrated effort to enlist the help of all the 55+ in the state perhaps the local congressional representatives and senators (state and Federal) would exert some influence on those poor Developers. In fact they are so poor that as soon as the Government extended the incentive (and included homeowners) many Developers gave notice of a rate rise.

Cant wait to retire - The Golden years might be fun afterall. Hope you still aren't feeling depressed.

Have a great day.
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Old 12-09-2009, 04:00 PM
 
19,922 posts, read 11,003,885 times
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Thank you Lecal. As a member of several boards over time (healthcare, community, PTA, etc) I've participated in my share of amending constitutions and bylaws.

Amendiment is a fairly straight-forward process as long as it's done correctly. The bylaws themselves will dictate the procedure, including things like timing, official notice, etc. The tricky and most time consuming part is to be sure that all parties that could be affected by the change have an opportunity to address the issue and that the body that the writes the amendment considers all the consequences of the change. Sometimes, even with the best of intentions, there are unintended consequences that can really mess things up. So any prudent group of individuals who follow procedure and consider all parties should be successful.

That being said, convincing a developer to amend without being in a position of "standing" is a tricky matter. It's always easier to make change from the inside as opposed to the outside. But it's been done. I was actually able to get the state of New York to amend the accepted classifications for special education students - as a parent - but with some assistance from the director of special education was saw the merits of the change.
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Old 12-09-2009, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Southern Maryland
124 posts, read 262,410 times
Reputation: 126
Hi Lecal, Nope, I'm not depressed; just anxious to hang up my real estate license and stop answering my phone. I'm tired of fighting with mortage companies and sick of watching so many of my clients lose their homes (especially the active duty service members). I'm going to let you guys with all your tenacity be on the BOD and I'll just enjoy being in the Quilting Club. But I'll be VERY grateful to have all of you as neighbors and having you watch the backsides of all the rest of us!
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