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I use public transit frequently. Having lived in NYC and Europe, I have good experience in using complicated systems. I do not think the Denver Rail system is all that complicated because it is still so small. Yes, it could be confusing to infrequent users and visitors but all city transit system have the same issue.
I have used the public transit, so frequently, and been to all the rail station that I can easily visualize the environ in my mind.
We talked about the rail system. Most people do not realize that the bus system has a formal nomenclature based on the city grid system. So the Bus running up and down Sheridan is the "51" because it is 51 blocks west of Broadway, which is the "zero" North South Block. The Broadway Bus is than called the "O". Same applies to Wadsworth bus which is the "76" which is 76 blocks west of Broadway.
The east west buses have the same naming scheme. So, that the east Colfax Bus is called the "15" because Colfax is really 15th Avenue. Now, West Colfax bus is the "16" because, in the past, the Colfax bus was a continuous route and it was latter split into two routes, so West Colfax was given the closest number to "15" which is "16".
Now the routes that go mostly are the number avenues, east to west, or parallel them are called by that number street. Ellsworth is the east/west cross street that defines zero in the east/west nomenclature. Street that have names south of Ellsworth have the route number that reflects the distance from Ellsworth. So, Alameda Route is "3", which is 3 blocks south of Ellsworth and since all all blocks are 100 numbers, it is 300 number south.
Did I confuse you??? What I am trying to say is that if you understand the street nomenclature, you have a start of understanding part of the bus system.
Since, I live on the West Side, I have been on all the routes in this area of town. I have been on many other routes--many times just to see where they go. Yea, I know, I need a life. You got to understand that I can ride the bus for free because I am disabled; I have trouble walking and now sometimes driving. Since I am retired, all the time I have is my own. I just enjoy seeing the metro area with a slower pace, as a pedestrian and a bus rider. You would be surprised what you can see, when you are not driving speedily down the road.
The Denver area has a good system for its size and it moving rapidly in becoming a great system. It is not for everyone, but it benefits everyone. If you do not take public transit, it allows more safe space for your driving. It takes the aged off the roads; It provides safe transit for the youth and it gives us all an economical option to move around, while at same time lessening the damage to the air, we breath.
With respect to naming the Light Rail Lines. The original line was called the "D" line because it went "D"owntown. The second line was named the "C" line because it used the same tracks as the "D" until it got to Auraria, then it veered west (instead of east like the "D" line) in a semi-circle eventually ending up in LoDo. On the map, its route looks like the letter "C."
When the Southeast lines were built, it was decided that they would continue using letters, though the letters have no real connection to anything. Thus the "A," "B," "E," "F," and "G" Lines were born.
I don't know if the future transit corridors will retain their current names, or if they will be given letter designations as well. It seems to me the Gold Line might be confusing because it goes west, but not to Golden (the final stop of the West Corridor).
We talked about the rail system. Most people do not realize that the bus system has a formal nomenclature based on the city grid system. So the Bus running up and down Sheridan is the "51" because it is 51 blocks west of Broadway, which is the "zero" North South Block. The Broadway Bus is than called the "O". Same applies to Wadsworth bus which is the "76" which is 76 blocks west of Broadway.
The east west buses have the same naming scheme. So, that the east Colfax Bus is called the "15" because Colfax is really 15th Avenue. Now, West Colfax bus is the "16" because, in the past, the Colfax bus was a continuous route and it was latter split into two routes, so West Colfax was given the closest number to "15" which is "16".
Now the routes that go mostly are the number avenues, east to west, or parallel them are called by that number street. Ellsworth is the east/west cross street that defines zero in the east/west nomenclature. Street that have names south of Ellsworth have the route number that reflects the distance from Ellsworth. So, Alameda Route is "3", which is 3 blocks south of Ellsworth and since all all blocks are 100 numbers, it is 300 number south.
Did I confuse you??? What I am trying to say is that if you understand the street nomenclature, you have a start of understanding part of the bus system.
Livecontent
That wasn't confusing at all - instead very informative! And it makes sense. Also, the University Blvd. is 24, 24 blocks east of Broadway and 67 along Arapahoe. Thanks for the post!
Last edited by chilicheesefries; 07-24-2010 at 08:30 AM..
I'm new to light rail and love it. I recently got a job that's very near the I-25 & Broadway station, but is moving to very near the Arapahoe Village station in September. My hubby works and parks downtown, so I ride in with him, then get on the LR to work. In a pinch, I can take the bus home, but it'll be an hour ride for a 11 mile route. Ug! But that's in a pinch.
It is pricey compared to other cities, or even if I want to take the bus. But once my job moves to Greenwood Village, taking LR or bus will save me money. We get a flex spending account and my daily driver is a F-250 diesel, avg. mpg=15. Driving to Greenwood Village is going to cost me a gallon each way, currently running at $2.95/gal. With the flex account, I can get one way, 3 zone LR ticket for $2.17, buying a 10 ticket book, or a bus ticket for $1.26. And that's just diesel alone, not mentioning wear & tear on the truck. Oh...and I drive a truck because I have a horse & trailer. In addition, there's the mental benefits because I don't arrive at work frazzled from driving in traffic.
With respect to naming the Light Rail Lines. The original line was called the "D" line because it went "D"owntown. The second line was named the "C" line because it used the same tracks as the "D" until it got to Auraria, then it veered west (instead of east like the "D" line) in a semi-circle eventually ending up in LoDo. On the map, its route looks like the letter "C."
When the Southeast lines were built, it was decided that they would continue using letters, though the letters have no real connection to anything. Thus the "A," "B," "E," "F," and "G" Lines were born.
I don't know if the future transit corridors will retain their current names, or if they will be given letter designations as well. It seems to me the Gold Line might be confusing because it goes west, but not to Golden (the final stop of the West Corridor).
You made a good point. All these line names are just a continuation of the alphabet.
The Gold Line is name because it goes through Arvada near the point where gold was first discovered in Colorado, on Ralston Creek. However, that "Gold" name is just for planning purposes and the line will have another designation, just as the West Line will have another designation, probably another continuation of the alphabet.
Actually, all the lines and the buses that have Alpha characters, such as the Skyrides to the airport, have another designation, as defined with a numeral, in administration of the system. I think the rail lines are 3 numbers, such as 301, 302 etc.
I don't think transfers are too big an issue unless one is hoping to entirely bypass Union Station...the trade-off seems to be that of transit oriented development in and around the downtown area and along the rail lines as the system grows. I would LOVE to have a Hampden, Colorado and Broadway tram, but as has been pointed out, there are good buses that handle those routes at the moment and the rail system is struggling financially as it is. I'd be content with dedicated busways in the future which I think would come at a substantially lower cost, high speed of transit, and open up right-of-way in the event that ridership ever does become significant enough to justify the installation of rail.
I haven't looked to see if there is express service along those routes...Hampden, Colorado, Colfax and Broadway...but even that would be limited by traffic, undercutting one of the major benefits of public transit.
Great info on the nomenclature of the bus system, livecontent, and also a great mini-primer on Denver history in regards to the road system. Definitely agree with davidv about the fares. I haven't seen the research (which I should look for...probably accessible on RTD's site), but I would think lowering the fares slightly might increase ridership somewhat, particularly if we see another boost in fuel prices (which tend to lag current events by around 6 months or so I've noticed.) It's a difficult balance when trying to pay for at least part of the expense of the system but also keep ridership high enough to do the same.
I still think rail line names could be changed sometime in the future. I'd think something like "Downtown Line" to "D" line (if it were still appropriate and distinct at the time), "Circle Line" or something similar for the SE corridor / I-225 corridor extension (even though having that line run a full circle won't be strictly true or even possible due to differences in trains...perhaps there would be another appropriate name..."Aurora Line?" "East Line?"), "Western Line", "Airport Line", maybe even something like "Arsenal Line" or "Commerce Line" or even just "North Line" for the major North Metro Corridor line.
Understandably, all of this goes up in the air given the complicated status of the trains that run through California / Stout downtown (which is why it seems we have the additional line names at the moment.)
All issues probably more appropriate to bring up (or at least inquire about) at the next public transit meeting, I suppose. Definitely considerations more for the long term.
I would LOVE to have a Hampden, Colorado and Broadway tram, but as has been pointed out, there are good buses that handle those routes at the moment and the rail system is struggling financially as it is.
I have to say that the Southwest area is the most underserved mass transit area in the metro area.
There is NOT a way to travel from Ken Caryl to the Tech Center without at least one or two transfers. The route scheduler says that to get to the DTC by 7:00 am, one must leave by 5:15 am.
There is no good/viable Hampden bus. The Hampden Crosstown Route (35) originates at the Englewood Light Rail Station and goes east to the 9 Mile P&R. What about west of Englewood? A true "crosstown" route would go from the west to the east, not the middle to the east. The Yale Crosstown (27) travels from the Wadsworth P&R to DTC, but it takes 90 minutes to make the trip.
Right now Hampden is being expanded to 3 lanes each way from Wadsworth east. How about making the 3rd lane a bus lane? This would allow the buses to bypass the tie ups at the red lights at Lowell and Brady. This bus lane could run all the way to Monaco giving Hampden (one of the metro areas busiest thoroughfares) an effective BRT line.
Light Rail follows Santa Fe, but because of the way the city is laid out, there are not many residences west of the stations, only the Platte River and open space. The only way to use it if you live near Columbine/Ken Caryl is to get on a very slow bus to Mineral Station or drive your car 5 or more miles.
RTD will say that there are no routes because no one rides the bus, but no one rides the bus because it doesn't go anywhere useful. Meanwhile RTD is perfectly happy to ignore the area and take our tax money to subsidize other parts of the metro area.
I agree it is a big issue for west/east travel in the southern suburbs. Of course, it is because that is the wealthier part of the metro area, so it is assumed that not enough people would not ride the bus. The service North/South is better because there are those major streets which transverse the area. Also, it serves the idea of the Spoke and Wheel, such that most public transit should go downtown with transfers from there. I think that is wrong and does not serve well suburban to suburban public transit. Most of the older central bus routes from the suburbs go east/west, go through downtown.
It takes years and years before RTD extends bus routes out to serve new areas; and even when they do extend, initially, it is just very limited service. So, if you really need or want to use public transit, often, then you must live and work in an well, established, served area.
The building of the rail has brought areas into public transit, in the south, much quicker than than an expansion of buses. It will happen over time, that there will be more rail service, east/west, in the southern suburbs, but we will all be long gone before that happens. We have just started to build east/rail in the north with the West Line to Lakewood as the start, following by the Airport Line and then the Gold Line through Arvada. I am hoping that I live to see this rail line, in Arvada, with a station near my house--well it is something to look forward to in my life.
The lightrail system is really efficent, especially for me this past year- but it mostly services the southwest suburbs (Littleton, Englewood), the area directly around the old rail line and I-25, all the way to downtown. It doesn't really do much for the city of Denver itself, which is probably where it's needed most. And yes, the newly planned rail lines along I-70 are efficient, but what about the lower-income neighborhoods in the center of the city? I know Five Points is already serviced, but what about City Park? Clayton? Park Hill? Lowry? And forget what I said about just low-income- where are the rail services for anyone else who doesn't live in the suburbs/downtown/Five Points/along the highway?
Actually, all the lines and the buses that have Alpha characters, such as the Skyrides to the airport, have another designation, as defined with a numeral, in administration of the system. I think the rail lines are 3 numbers, such as 301, 302 etc.
Last time I checked light rail lines were all Route 101.
Route 101/Light Rail: Line C
Route 101/Light Rail: Line D
Route 101/Light Rail: Line E
Route 101/Light Rail: Line F
Route 101/Light Rail: Line H
I have an original RTD Light Rail schedule from when they first opened it. At that time having just one line with no letters, the schedule was just for Route 101. I never understood the reason for them printing it that way. Since they never displayed 101 on the destination signs.
As for the use on bus routes, I can see where they would need to number those for internal use. Just to avoid confusion. RTD has so over used letters for bus routes. Skyride Routes, Regional Routes, some shuttle bus routes and now Light Rail Lines. Then they had to re-letter some Regional Routes to avoid confusion with the Rail Lines. They could have made it so much more simple, if they had just used colors to designate rail lines, like most transit systems do.
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