CU Denver business school? (Aurora, Fort Collins: condos, salary, job)

[Mike from back east]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

... I've been talking with my family, and they're making me feel guilty, like I'm a slacker or something if I were to choose Denver over a career in LA. I don't even know who to believe now!

Nonsense. There's nothing "slack" about Denver. Talk to Denver firms as part of your 'due diligence' process prior to deciding.

[Katiana]

Not to worry, vegaspilgrim. A degree from CU-Denver does not mean you will have to work in Denver the rest of your life. My nephew got a degree in finance from CU-Boulder (MS). He started out with a firm in Denver, but is now working in Pittsburgh and hoping to move on to New York. It may be that your first job will be in Denver, but once you get experience you can go anywhere!

[vegaspilgrim]

Ok, I take that back, partially. It's not that necessarily that they want me to live in LA, it's that they think it would be "below me" to "settle" for CU Denver when I could get into USC, which they perceive as a superior school. They also think it would be "below me" to work for a smaller accounting firm if I'm the kind of person who has the potential to work for a Big 4. They think USC=Earning Big Bucks and CU Denver=Little Bucks. They think I'm turning down a "once in a lifetime opportunity" (their words, not mine). Which I think is nonsense. I'm saying that even though there's no law saying I can't go to USC for a year, spend $40,000+ bucks, and then do my own job search and attempt to get on with an accounting firm in Denver, even a Big 4 firm in Denver, it probably won't happen that way. Having that much student debt to take care of, I would probably be self-coerced to take the highest paying job I could find, even if it's not what I want to do, just to pay the loans off and feel like I'm "getting my money's worth" for what I spent on tuition at USC. For reason, my gut instinct is telling me I might be happier in a smaller, local, more friendly accounting firm.

USC's summer program, which precedes the actual MS program, is an 8 week intensive program for people who didn't major in accounting as an undergrad. According to their admissions staff who I talked to earlier, you take a bunch of classes in rapid fire, one after another, and you live in a dorm and study with the same group of people all day for the summer. She said it is a "bonding experience." To some people that might sound fun, but to me that makes me want to keel over. The "bonding" sounds like a repeat of freshmen year in the dorms, except with less drinking and way more studying. It's not that I'm antisocial, just that I like having my own personal space and socializing with diverse groups of people, not the same people 24/7. I lived in the dorms first two years of college and while I'm glad I did it, it's not something I ever want to do again.

Another thing I dislike about USC is according to them, there is no opportunity to do any kind of internship experience, since their program consists of classes during the day. I would graduate one year later with a MAcc degree, but no experience, and then plunge head first into a Big 4 accounting firm. With CU Denver, my plan would be to get an internship or two or three, having some accounting experience before I graduate, which might even give me a clearer idea of where I want to go. The classes are mainly night classes, except for the undergrad level prereq classes I would plan on getting caught up on this summer. The CU Denver program might take me as short as one year, and it could take as long as two years, depending on how many classes I take. I don't really care whether it's 1 year, 1.5 years, or 2 years, as long I'm working towards the goal and accumulating experience. In fact, if CU Denver's part time program means I have a little breathing room to figure things out as I go, I like that even better. This might be difficult to explain to them, but my "gut instinct" is telling me I'd be happier if I go the CU Denver route. Either way I plan on working hard, but I feel in Denver I'd have a lot less worries and sleep a lot better at night.

I'm also starting to think if/when I move back to Denver, I might need to live on my own, even if it costs a little more. It's bad enough hearing the guilt trip on the phone from 900 miles away; this will probably be torture having to put up with that every day in person. Of course, renting an apartment somewhere in Denver narrows the cost differential of the two options, but it will cost a heck of a lot less than renting a place in L.A.

[ColoWeb]

vegaspilgrim,
I think you will like CU Denver. I just graduated with A B.S., Degree there in Business / CIS. I also lived in Aurora and took the H train. And I did work Downtown and walked to/from work and school. I loved it and this was great.

I no longer do that and moved, but while I did it I loved it! One tip: While the 9 Mile gets filled up fast (as early as 6 & 7 AM especially on snow days), you can drive and park at the Dayton Station. It is very close and it is a secret (well, not anymore) that many people do not know about as it is not located in a high traffic area.

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Not to worry, vegaspilgrim. A degree from CU-Denver does not mean you will have to work in Denver the rest of your life. My nephew got a degree in finance from CU-Boulder (MS). He started out with a firm in Denver, but is now working in Pittsburgh and hoping to move on to New York. It may be that your first job will be in Denver, but once you get experience you can go anywhere!

Thanks for your reponse, Katiana, as well as your other recent ones. The way I see it, if you had to be "stuck" somewhere you're entire life, I can't think of a better city to get "stuck" in than Denver! I don't have to go back to Denver-- I want to! Four years on and off of being away, I now realize there isn't a perfect place, and Denver definitely isn't for everybody, but it's just fine for me! This might sound very weird, but I miss the snow, the seasons, the crisp cold air, the pine trees, even the brown ugly slushy stuff they spray on the roads! (well maybe not that part so much). The way I see it, LA is basically where I'm living right now (Phoenix area), but with way more people, way more traffic, more pollution, more crime, more stressed out people, even harder to get out of town on the weekends. The only benefits would be much better summers and a little more "action." Truth is, Denver has plenty of action for me. I'm tired of living as a Colorado expatriate-- I want back!

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by ColoWeb

vegaspilgrim,
I think you will like CU Denver. I just graduated with A B.S., Degree there in Business / CIS. I also lived in Aurora and took the H train. And I did work Downtown and walked to/from work and school. I loved it and this was great.

I no longer do that and moved, but while I did it I loved it! One tip: While the 9 Mile gets filled up fast (as early as 6 & 7 AM especially on snow days), you can drive and park at the Dayton Station. It is very close and it is a secret (well, not anymore) that many people do not know about as it is not located in a high traffic area.

Great idea, ColoWeb. I might be following in your footsteps!

[DENVERBULLDOG]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

Ok, I take that back, partially. It's not that necessarily that they want me to live in LA, it's that they think it would be "below me" to "settle" for CU Denver when I could get into USC, which they perceive as a superior school. They also think it would be "below me" to work for a smaller accounting firm if I'm the kind of person who has the potential to work for a Big 4. They think USC=Earning Big Bucks and CU Denver=Little Bucks. They think I'm turning down a "once in a lifetime opportunity" (their words, not mine). Which I think is nonsense. I'm saying that even though there's no law saying I can't go to USC for a year, spend $40,000+ bucks, and then do my own job search and attempt to get on with an accounting firm in Denver, even a Big 4 firm in Denver, it probably won't happen that way. Having that much student debt to take care of, I would probably be self-coerced to take the highest paying job I could find, even if it's not what I want to do, just to pay the loans off and feel like I'm "getting my money's worth" for what I spent on tuition at USC. For reason, my gut instinct is telling me I might be happier in a smaller, local, more friendly accounting firm.

USC's summer program, which precedes the actual MS program, is an 8 week intensive program for people who didn't major in accounting as an undergrad. According to their admissions staff who I talked to earlier, you take a bunch of classes in rapid fire, one after another, and you live in a dorm and study with the same group of people all day for the summer. She said it is a "bonding experience." To some people that might sound fun, but to me that makes me want to keel over. The "bonding" sounds like a repeat of freshmen year in the dorms, except with less drinking and way more studying. It's not that I'm antisocial, just that I like having my own personal space and socializing with diverse groups of people, not the same people 24/7. I lived in the dorms first two years of college and while I'm glad I did it, it's not something I ever want to do again.

Another thing I dislike about USC is according to them, there is no opportunity to do any kind of internship experience, since their program consists of classes during the day. I would graduate one year later with a MAcc degree, but no experience, and then plunge head first into a Big 4 accounting firm. With CU Denver, my plan would be to get an internship or two or three, having some accounting experience before I graduate, which might even give me a clearer idea of where I want to go. The classes are mainly night classes, except for the undergrad level prereq classes I would plan on getting caught up on this summer. The CU Denver program might take me as short as one year, and it could take as long as two years, depending on how many classes I take. I don't really care whether it's 1 year, 1.5 years, or 2 years, as long I'm working towards the goal and accumulating experience. In fact, if CU Denver's part time program means I have a little breathing room to figure things out as I go, I like that even better. This might be difficult to explain to them, but my "gut instinct" is telling me I'd be happier if I go the CU Denver route. Either way I plan on working hard, but I feel in Denver I'd have a lot less worries and sleep a lot better at night.

I'm also starting to think if/when I move back to Denver, I might need to live on my own, even if it costs a little more. It's bad enough hearing the guilt trip on the phone from 900 miles away; this will probably be torture having to put up with that every day in person. Of course, renting an apartment somewhere in Denver narrows the cost differential of the two options, but it will cost a heck of a lot less than renting a place in L.A.

Lots to consider here, but I might be some help. I graduated with a MAcc a few years agp and did the whole recruiting thing with all the public firms. I (obviously) am no longer in public accounting, or I'd be too busy to post this.

First of all, stop listening to half the stuff they are saying. They obviously have your best interest in mind, but comparing Denver and USC like they have been does not really help your decision. The same goes with Big-4 vs. other firms/private industry. The fact is, USC has one of, if not the best alumni networks in the country. While it wouldn't really matter if you just wanted to live in Denver the rest of your life. There probably will be a difference here if you ever decided to leave Denver. Even if you stay in Denver, you will have contacts throughout the country and world. Does this mean you should go to USC? Not at all, but I think it is important to consider. I would have a hard time shelling out that kind of money, no doubt. Assuming you have decent undergrad grades and do well in grad school, you should get an offer out of CU-D. After that, a few years experience and three letters behind your name will open more doors than a degree from any school would.

The other thing is make sure the Big 4 path is the right one for you. All my friends hate it, but they live with it. I decided to bail on the Big 4s before I accepted any offers. The turning point for me was at a recruiting dinner, someone asked a senior whats the most they've worked in a week. The senior proudly says: 112 hours. Now, I was able to get out then because I had a decent idea of what I wanted to do and it didn't involve large corporations. If you want to be a CFO at a Fortune 500 company, go Big 4. If you want to work for a large company in general, I'd say Big 4 would be a better path, although certainly not the only one. I find it remarkable how many people do the Big 4 path because that is what they are supposed to do, and little thought goes into it beyond that. You can get very similar exposure working for a large local firm or regional one, and its not as much as a rat race.

Also, the recruiting thing can be difficult for a novice to navigate. From my experience, the office closest to your school recruits for that school. At a place like USC, you might have LA, Orange County, and SD offices all recruiting, or the option to pick between any of those. At CU-Denver, you'd likely be recruited exclusively by the Denver office of the firms. Now, you can be recruited out of LA and come to Denver, it just takes a little more work. You would have the same initial interviews as everybody else, but you will want to make sure the Denver recruiting managers are talking with the LA ones, yourself talking to both of them as well.

Also, it sounds as though you didn't graduate with an accounting degree, but as long as you have 24 semester hours of accounting classes, you can become a CPA in Colorado with just 128 semester hours, a bachelors degree. Many people aren't aware there is no 150 requirement here. A full program will help you prepare for the test, but its possible without. If you do go the MS Accounting route, there is no reason the program will take more than a year if you have all the prereqs out of the way..

Finally, this should be your summer to take an internship. The Big 4 have gone through their process by now, but they might have an opening. Look on their websites and even if they say they are done recruiting for the internship program, try giving the Denver recruiter a call to see if anything has opened up. Give a try to some of the better local and regional firms in town...Grant Thornton, EKS&H, GHP Horwath, Clifton Gunderson, Hein and Assoc. are a few. The sooner you get on this the better! Good luck and let me know if you have any other questions!

[DenverAztec]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

Thanks, ...I consider myself a hard worker, but I don't want to turn into an uptight, stressed out zombie, which is what I feel might happen if I go the USC/LA route. But would I be making a mistake to not go to USC? Or am I just buying in to their sales pitch? What do you guys think?

Great advice to talk with Denver accounting firms, but since you gave the admissions reps at USC a discussion, did you give the UCD Adission reps a call to tell them what is on the table now? UCD and all of CU in general also has strong ties to the business communities here and across the country. True about the "who you know", but CPAs are in demand and most positions with large companies will pay well but you probably won't come out of the gate making over $100K a year. Ask the average income earned by new grads from each school, along with in-depth qustions comparing the two. The answers will be a good indicator as to if they are genuine or offering a sales pitch.

I stayed in Denver to avoid student loans and was so glad that I did as I was able to get on with my life with my first job without large debt looming over me. My folks also wanted me to go to CU Boulder or to a school that had a recognizable name. I found out that it was basically that they just wanted the best for me, but they really did no research as to what all of my possibilities were. I did have to deal with family gatherings and helping around the house with whatever, but found the library became a very good friend. Upon graduation, they were glad I was debt free and that I achieved my goals and theirs as well as I obtained a good job and was happy.

You really need to talk to those at these two schools and in the Accounting field to give you a clearer picture. Ask to talk to Schools Deans or department head and avoid admission counselors if possible. Ask if the departments have alumni that you could possibly contact for their perspective. Ask for a list of firms that will hire right out the gate and then contact them as well. Make these schools work for your attendance and use caution with sales pitches. The information you will get from family, friends and this forum is limited so grab the bull (UCD and USC) by the horns and tell them what you are facing.

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by DENVERBULLDOG

Lots to consider here, but I might be some help. I graduated with a MAcc a few years agp and did the whole recruiting thing with all the public firms. I (obviously) am no longer in public accounting, or I'd be too busy to post this.

Thanks for your thoughtful response, DENVERBULLDOG! You are really helping me think things out. Let me respond to your post piece by piece:

First of all, stop listening to half the stuff they are saying. They obviously have your best interest in mind, but comparing Denver and USC like they have been does not really help your decision. The same goes with Big-4 vs. other firms/private industry. The fact is, USC has one of, if not the best alumni networks in the country. While it wouldn't really matter if you just wanted to live in Denver the rest of your life. There probably will be a difference here if you ever decided to leave Denver. Even if you stay in Denver, you will have contacts throughout the country and world. Does this mean you should go to USC? Not at all, but I think it is important to consider. I would have a hard time shelling out that kind of money, no doubt. Assuming you have decent undergrad grades and do well in grad school, you should get an offer out of CU-D. After that, a few years experience and three letters behind your name will open more doors than a degree from any school would.

I can certainly call up UCD and see if I can squeeze something out of them, but I highly, highly doubt they would give any kind of tuition scholarship. I already went through that process four years ago when I asked CU Boulder if they had any scholarship to match the ones I received at my other admission offers (including ASU, where I am now), and they said no, and when I asked them why not, they said "frankly, we don't care."

Let's say if I were to wake up tomorrow morning and say, my mission in life is to work for Deloitte, PWC, KPMG, or E&Y-- in their Denver offices. Would I have a better chance at getting hired with the Big Four, in the Denver office, going to CU Denver or going to USC?

Is a MAcc degree not as prestigious/ important as a MBA?

The other thing is make sure the Big 4 path is the right one for you. All my friends hate it, but they live with it. I decided to bail on the Big 4s before I accepted any offers. The turning point for me was at a recruiting dinner, someone asked a senior whats the most they've worked in a week. The senior proudly says: 112 hours. Now, I was able to get out then because I had a decent idea of what I wanted to do and it didn't involve large corporations. If you want to be a CFO at a Fortune 500 company, go Big 4. If you want to work for a large company in general, I'd say Big 4 would be a better path, although certainly not the only one. I find it remarkable how many people do the Big 4 path because that is what they are supposed to do, and little thought goes into it beyond that. You can get very similar exposure working for a large local firm or regional one, and its not as much as a rat race.

I'm reading this hear, and I'll admit, I am freaked out! There is no doubt that my life is going to be dramatically different than it is now once I graduate college. Dramatically different. And I fully understand that the "Forty Hour Workweek" is a total myth. But 112 hours sounds like slavery! 80 hours a week sounds ridiculous to me. 60 hour weeks, week after week consistently, sounds awfully high too. I don't want to end up hating my life and become suicidal just because of a job. I know what you mean, when people mindlessly feel like that's what they're "supposed to do." I feel that pressure myself. Just thinking about it makes my head hurt.

Do you happen to know what the average starting salary of a first year accounting grunt is at a Big Four firm? What is the typical salary once you earn the CPA designation? How does this compare to the starting salary at a Denver area local/regional accounting firm?

Finally, this should be your summer to take an internship. The Big 4 have gone through their process by now, but they might have an opening. Look on their websites and even if they say they are done recruiting for the internship program, try giving the Denver recruiter a call to see if anything has opened up. Give a try to some of the better local and regional firms in town...Grant Thornton, EKS&H, GHP Horwath, Clifton Gunderson, Hein and Assoc. are a few. The sooner you get on this the better! Good luck and let me know if you have any other questions!

If I go to USC, there will be no room whatsoever for any internship, according to them. I'll be in wall to wall classes during the day this entire summer, and the fall and spring semesters are full time. That's one thing I find a little odd; at USC they encourage liberal arts graduates with no work experience (just like myself) to join their MAcc program, which leaves no room for internships at all, and then paradoxically they claim you are practically shoved into the hands of the Big 4 with recruiting starting during the first semester of the program. It seems a little weird to me; and that's another one of my reservations; at USC, it seems like there would be no "try before you buy" period before I'm shoved into a career.

BTW, as of right now, all the accounting I've taken is just 2 introductory level classes: Intro to Financial Accounting and Intro to Management Accounting. Do I even have enough knowledge as of right now to get an accounting internship this summer?

I'm certain that I want to get a MS in Accounting, but I'm not dead certain I want to work for a Big 4 or even become a public accountant. Right now I'm taking an intro "Management Accounting" class and even though this is extremely basic material, I'm enjoying this even more than the Financial Accounting class. I like the aspect of decision making (whether to accept special orders, drop/keep a product line, determing the right sales mix, etc). My understanding was a degree in accounting can lead to public accounting, tax, management accounting, and even finance. Before I applied to the programs, I spent hours on monster.com looking at job listings, and many financial analyst jobs said they required a "B.S. in Finance or Accounting." Finance is still an avenue I might pursue, and if I went to CU Denver I would try to take some finance courses as well. I almost feel like I need to take an extra year of business courses to be 100% sure what field I want to do.

I feel like at USC they try to get as many students as possible into the Big 4, as early as possible in the program. If money didn't mean a thing in the world I would probably triple major in English (my major), accounting, and finance. The main reason I'm not doing that is I'm attending ASU on a scholarship which runs out this semester, and after that I'd be subject to $17,000 a year out of state tuition rates. So I figure, if I'm going to continue my education and take more business classes, do it as a master's level, and at a school like CU Denver so I keep the costs low. I feel like the USC thing is pushing me one step farther past where I currently am mentally.

Originally Posted by DenverAztec

Great advice to talk with Denver accounting firms, but since you gave the admissions reps at USC a discussion, did you give the UCD Adission reps a call to tell them what is on the table now? UCD and all of CU in general also has strong ties to the business communities here and across the country. True about the "who you know", but CPAs are in demand and most positions with large companies will pay well but you probably won't come out of the gate making over $100K a year. Ask the average income earned by new grads from each school, along with in-depth qustions comparing the two. The answers will be a good indicator as to if they are genuine or offering a sales pitch.

Thanks for the advice, DenverAztec. I will definitely try to squeeze out whatever information I can out of them.

[DENVERBULLDOG]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

Thanks for your thoughtful response, DENVERBULLDOG! You are really helping me think things out. Let me respond to your post piece by piece:


I can certainly call up UCD and see if I can squeeze something out of them, but I highly, highly doubt they would give any kind of tuition scholarship. I already went through that process four years ago when I asked CU Boulder if they had any scholarship to match the ones I received at my other admission offers (including ASU, where I am now), and they said no, and when I asked them why not, they said "frankly, we don't care."

Let's say if I were to wake up tomorrow morning and say, my mission in life is to work for Deloitte, PWC, KPMG, or E&Y-- in their Denver offices. Would I have a better chance at getting hired with the Big Four, in the Denver office, going to CU Denver or going to USC?

Is a MAcc degree not as prestigious/ important as a MBA?

Getting a job w/ a Big 4 really depends on your undergrad grades as much as anything. USC might send more people to Big 4 firms because their average student probably has a little better credentials than UC-D. I'm sure they still hire out of CU-D. Its just hard to say because so much of it depends on the individual.

The MAcc is the same as a MS of Accounting, its just what the different schools call it. These accounting programs are difficult to compare to MBAs as far as prestige for a few reasons. Students going into these programs are at different points in their careers. MBA programs are typically designed for professionals with at least a couple years of experience. The classes are usually framed around work experience. The accounting programs do this, just not to the extent. Accounting programs throughout the country are largely developed for people like yourself, get the 150 credit hours to sit for the CPA and get an entry level job at a firm.

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

I'm reading this hear, and I'll admit, I am freaked out! There is no doubt that my life is going to be dramatically different than it is now once I graduate college. Dramatically different. And I fully understand that the "Forty Hour Workweek" is a total myth. But 112 hours sounds like slavery! 80 hours a week sounds ridiculous to me. 60 hour weeks, week after week consistently, sounds awfully high too. I don't want to end up hating my life and become suicidal just because of a job. I know what you mean, when people mindlessly feel like that's what they're "supposed to do." I feel that pressure myself. Just thinking about it makes my head hurt.

Do you happen to know what the average starting salary of a first year accounting grunt is at a Big Four firm? What is the typical salary once you earn the CPA designation? How does this compare to the starting salary at a Denver area local/regional accounting firm?

You certainly wouldn't be working that much initially and VERY few people ever work that much. 60 hours/week is regular though, especially during busy season.

No clue on starting salaries in Denver right now. Probably just below 50k for Big 4 with small decreases (2-4k) at the next level.

More later, but I gotta run now.