Car Free living in Denver (default, oil , business)

[steveindenver]

As someone who rides 5,000+ miles a year and drives < 1000 .... living car free is a change. You learn to respect the fact that life can be lived at a slower pace.

That said, I have yet to cut the cord completely and do away with the alternative of a car (which I last filled up 4 months ago ) -- so I remain a bit of a hippocrit on the matter ...

[MobyLL]

Originally Posted by livecontent

I strongly support Transit Oriented Development (TOD). Unfortunately, most of the brand new TODs are priced for the affluent and are becoming more expensive, in demand and the new "in neigborhood" to live.

Yeah, i agree with what you are saying, but i think that TOD's are good in a general philosophical sense. As was mentioned in one of the articles, there is an estimate that around 30% of the population would be interested in living in a TOD type of development, but currently only 2% of the housing is classified as such -- therefore what does exist is expensive due to supply and demand. As more TOD's are built maybe that will bring about more of an equilibrium. One thing that may be contrary to your libertarian view, LC, is an 80/20 type development -- where 80% of the units are market rate and the other 20% are set aside for working people who make X% of the median income for that metro area. The key is that the units that are set aside are scattered throughout the building/development and not clustered together where a stigma is developed about a certain floor or area of the development. I have lived in buildings like that in the NY area and it worked well.

I also agree with your point about existing neighborhoods and the bus lines, as you probably know I really like some of the more modest untrendy neighborhoods in Denver and the suburbs like Harvey Park, Englewood, Arvada, Lakewood, etc. I think that Denver and the metro area is fortunate in many ways to have decent neighborhoods in many different price ranges with viable public transportation (as well as bike lanes). As I have said before, Denver has plenty of problems, but I am fairly optimistic that most of the metro area is cooperating in a way that will improve the quality of life for the residents here, that many other metro areas can only wish for. I am very much for people having choice in how they live, and what people need for themselves and their families can change throughout a lifetime.

Being from eastern New Mexico and having relatives that had ranches and farms as well as some like my immediate family who lived in the big city of Clovis, and then moving away for college and living in Philly, NYC, the SF Bay Area and Miami I can appreciate both the desire for small town and rural living as well as urban amenities. I guess the one thing I can't really comprehend is the fixation among so many people for having a big house or huge yard for the sake of it -- i guess it is for the status it supposedly conveys or something. I can understand wanting some room for kids to play, I can understand wanting to live a rural lifestyle with horses or an actual working farm. I can understand wanting to live in a city with nightlife and things to do and social opportunities. What I don't get is wanting a 6000 sq. foot mcMansion where most rooms are never used, but energy is being used and wasted to heat and cool the space. And the people who live in them often have illegal immigrants do the cleaning and landscaping, but look down upon their housekeepers and landscapers as being not worthy of legal rights or fair wages.

I would never want to legislate away the right of someone to live in some sprawling McMansion in a gated community somewhere in the middle of whereever, but I do think it is sad that so many people have a "I've got mine, screw everyone else" type of mentality. Maybe my perceptions are a little out of whack though, having just lived a few years in south Florida, which is probably the king of the McMansion in the gated community developments.

Anyway sorry about the rant, it's late and i'm tired... my thoughts are probably not expessed too well and they are somewhat off topic, but hey who cares -- you get what you pay for.

[TropicanaRose]

I'm always surprised when I see posts from people who are intentionally looking for home that will force them to have a long commute. When my husband was commuting to Glendale from Boulder we absolutely hated it. My husband hated the drive, hated knowing that he was another car on the road, and he was so tired. The worst thing was that it took so much time away from our family time. We looked for a place to live in Denver but thank goodness he was able to move his office back to Boulder before we found something! The two extra hours are treasure to us.

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by TropicanaRose

I'm always surprised when I see posts from people who are intentionally looking for home that will force them to have a long commute. When my husband was commuting to Glendale from Boulder we absolutely hated it. My husband hated the drive, hated knowing that he was another car on the road, and he was so tired. The worst thing was that it took so much time away from our family time. We looked for a place to live in Denver but thank goodness he was able to move his office back to Boulder before we found something! The two extra hours are treasure to us.

Exactly! And while I can understand why if somebody's job was in, say, downtown Denver, they might want to live in a suburb and not right around downtown, and I can get why people don't want to live right across the street from their work either, some of the inquiries I've seen here are outrageous. Such as somebody with a job in Golden asking about living in Castle Rock, Highlands Ranch or Parker. Going out of their way to live in a different suburb that is no different than the suburb they work in. Somebody with a job in Highlands Ranch wanting to live in Parker. Somebody with a job in the Tech Center who wants to live in Longmont. Somebody who says they have a job in Broomfield, says they have kids and want a suburban environment, and asks where they should live... uh, how about starting off with Broomfield itself? The worst thing is when they preface their post saying "I currently commute two hours to work in [LA/ DC/ Dallas/ insert city here], so the driving time is not an issue for me." I actually consider that an insult to the people who already live in Denver. They're basically saying they have low standards and have no problem bringing those low standards to Denver with them, dragging us all down in the traffic. Why not make your move to Denver an opportunity to *cut down* on the amount of driving you have to do and start living smarter?

[Katiana]

I agree with TropicanaRose and vegaspilgrim. I guess until recently, we haven't practiced what we preached, but believe me, it is nice to have that extra time for your family, your hobbies or whatever.

When we came here, we rented in Denver and both worked in the burbs, about a 7 mile commute for each of us in different directions. Then we bought a house in Louisville b/c we liked the small-townish atmosphere (this was 1982 before Lsvl really took off), and we were both commuting about 18 miles, me east to Thornton and DH south to Wheat Ridge. I guess this is what makes it a little hard for everyone to live near their work, but it's worth it, I think, for at least one person to do. In any event, we had kids and I ended up working in closer-in locations just because of the kids and day care issues. At one point, DH's office moved to Genessee, 30 miles and a 50-60 min. drive for him. It really was eat, work, sleep for him on work days. He was able to work at home 1 day/week, so he could take care of his life needs and go to the kids' activities at school, conferences, etc. Now I work 4 1/2 miles away in Louisvile and he works 6 miles away in Boulder. We are really enjoying the free time that was eaten up by his commutes.

I would recommend to anyone relocating, that they try to find a house in reasonable proximity to the job they are relocating for. I have expounded on schools in the past; I don't think it's necessary to find the "best" school for your child, as so much of education is what your child puts into it, especially in later years.

In regards to wanting a huge yard, it's not really available in most of the Denver suburbs. I remember checking a while back and there are a few largish lots in Arvada, but that is an exception, and even there, it's a small percentage of the homes that have anything bigger than 1/4 acre (roughly 10,000 sq ft).

Re: the TOD (sorry this is getting so wordy, but I want to reply to several people), I'm more in livecontent's court with this one. I'm not interested in buying organic cat food, or organic clothes, or frou-frou coffee drinks and the like. I work 3 days a week and I don't really have time to do a lot of leisure shopping. I want to be able to go to Kohl's, Target, the grocery store, dr's office and other places I need to go w/o driving a long way. I kind of like the "old urbanism", where there are streets lined with shops that actually sell stuff you need/want. Sort of what the malls offer today, but in a different environment.

"Nuff said.

[TropicanaRose]

I definitely get how people end up living far from home- after all DH was commuting to Glendale, I just can't wrap my mind around making that your first choice!

[livecontent]

Some Observations:

I just visited relatives in a gated community in Lone Tree. Their McMansion is about 1 1/2 miles from the Lincoln Station but you cannot drive, walk or bike there, because there is another gated community that blocks direct access; you must go about 4 1/2 miles around to get to the station. So, what you see in Lone Tree is cars crowding the main roads because the their are not accessible side road.

A point is when I drive to Lone Tree from Arvada, I do not take the Hwy. because I want to see what is being developed in the area and I do not enjoy hwy. driving. As I go there through different neigborhoods, I see people out and about, walking, biking and playing in the neighborhoods. When, I get closer to affuences, the activity is less, and stops at relative's neighborhood in Lone Tree--there is rarely anybody outside--and this was a beautiful sunny day. I have been to their house, numerous times, and I have not yet, stepped on the grass.

A huge transit oriented development is being built for the new rich, near the dry creek station and Inverness Drive. It is interesting but it is typical of the type of wealthy TOD that is near a station with a walkable bridge but you will see very few people walk to the station, few will use the transit and if they do, they will drive to the station--it is just for bragging rights that they live near a station. This type of residents have been seen in other parts of the country in TODs, where studies have been done.

Yes, we are in the time where it makes sense to check out the transportation options first and then find a place to live. However, many people today are stuck with their choices. If you can afford the gas and the commuting time, then there is no issue but for many people who live on the financial edge--it is a real problem, as we are seeing.

I take the buses often and I am startled by the increased usage that I am seeing on many routes but there are many people that will never take public transit, never walk, never ride a bike and here in Denver, always take the highway. There are so called bragging "natives" that I have met who know very little about the city that they live and only know what they can see from the speedway. I, as a transplant, know more about the neighborhoods, the streets and the community that make up the Great Denver Metropolis than these people who have been born here.

It must be noted that the public transit is not designed to serve all the people all the time; it is complementary to auto transit. Even in New York City, most people do not use public transit on a daily basis. It surprised me when I lived in NYC, that there were many people, who drove from Brooklyn to Manhattan, and would not use any bus or train. I have also met the same type of people in NYC, who know nothing about their city, other than what they can see from the windshield.

SteveinDenver is a person that I admire, bicycling the distances, rarely using a car. I wish I could do that but I try. I have not filled my tank, going on 5 weeks. I am within walking distance of:

King Soopers .26 mile
Ace Hardware Store .2 mile
Walgreens-.3 mile
Movie Theatre .22 mile

fast food restaurants, unique mexican sitdown, tamala store, banks, churches, auto repair shops, collision shop, pet store, various stores, gas stations, video rental, restaurants, bar, liguor stores .2-.6 miles

Neigborhood Park .15 mile
Elementary School, .3 miles

Reservoir lake and trails .5 mile
clear creek bike trail 1.0 mile
New Super Walmart 1.4 miles
hotel .4 miles
roller skating arena .4 miles

and

a major bus route .3 miles
planned rail station .4 miles
park and ride on bus route, 3.3 miles
mall on bus route, 3.5 miles
recreation center, library, pools, athletic center, huge parks, more shopping 2 -6 miles on bus route.


a wildlife preserve .75 miles
a planned major regional park with lakes, trails .6 miles

Denver Downtown 6.4 miles to 16 Street Mall, accessible by bus and future direct by train

But no Starbucks, Cold Stone Creamery, Victoria Secret, Wine Bar, Overpriced restaurants, or any Fancy "Fluff" shops

But I live in a real TOD and I

Livecontent

Oh, I forgot to mention, no Maintenance or Homeowners Fees--just old fashion taxes.

[yodi]

Part of the reason why we bought our home in Old Englewood is it's easy access to public transportation. It has great bus and light rail service. It's also a walkable area. I can walk to the library, parks, grocery stores, restaurants, music venues, local shops, drug stores, medical offices, bike trails, etc. It does have Starbucks but it is not a yuppie area at all. It's very affordable and is a great alternative to the newer, gentrified and expensive TOD.

[Katiana]

I won't lie and say we bought in Louisville b/c of any transit available there. In fact, for years, there was no intra-city transit at all. Then again, Louisville isn't very big. What we went for was the small town atmosphere, which includes a walkable downtown. I haven't measured everything like livecontent, but I live 1.25 miles from a Safeway, which also has a Walgreen's, an optical shop, a shoe repair shop, dental office and bank in its walkable strip mall. I'm about two miles from a King Sooper's which also has a Hobby Lobby and some other stores, and a Burger King, again walkable if you choose (though you do have to cross Highway 42/95th St. which is farily busy, but controlled by lights). I'm probably 2 1/2 miles to downtown where the libraray is, plus some coffee shops (no Starbuck's) and restaurants, and yes, some boutiquey type places. One can park downtown and walk to many businesses, restaurants, banks, and my fave, the library. Oh, yeah, King Sooper's does have a Starbuck's inside!

[livecontent]

Originally Posted by yodi

Part of the reason why we bought our home in Old Englewood is it's easy access to public transportation. It has great bus and light rail service. It's also a walkable area. I can walk to the library, parks, grocery stores, restaurants, music venues, local shops, drug stores, medical offices, bike trails, etc. It does have Starbucks but it is not a yuppie area at all. It's very affordable and is a great alternative to the newer, gentrified and expensive TOD.

You are a very wise home buyer.

Yes, Old Englewood is a great area. I think that this a more sucessful TOD because it includes all the basic shopping you will need, within walkable distance. And one of the best advantage of this area is the Swedish Hospital and the associated Clinics which are walkable. So, for people who need constant medical care this is ideal. In addition, there is a shuttle that goes through the area, the ART shuttle.

Livecontent