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Old 07-27-2011, 10:35 AM
 
5,090 posts, read 13,521,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidv View Post
The reason why there are parking problems on the Southwest light rail line is that it does not truly serve the southwest portion of the metro area. The southwest area of the metro area is the most underserved area in RTD. A bus from the Ken Caryl P&R to the nearest light rail station takes 25 min. A trip downtown on an express bus takes nearly an hour and has about 30 stops (how is that an express?)

Many people in the area would like to take advantage of public transportation, but the only way to make it bearable is to drive to the light rail station and then take the train. It shaves 20 min off of each trip or over 3 hours per week in commute time. I know that the standard answer is to move, but we pay the same RTD taxes for substandard service.
All new and wealthier areas have less service than older and poorer areas. That is because the need exist before the service. You certainly do not see many bus routes through Cherry Hills Village. Yes, you can argue that the use would increase if the service exist--the idea of the "chicken or the egg", which came first. However, people who have other more convenient options, "cars", often mean that "use" will not equal the necessary threshold of "need" which would make a route more viable. New Public transit routes are extremely difficult to start and old ones stay forever, sometimes even beyond their usefullness.

Keep in mind that the visible "tax" for RTD is on purchasing. So you, who have more of a disposal income; buy more stuff; pay more tax. You will pay that tax weather you use the system or not. That is the way of tax: I pay for football tax and I hate football. It is interesting to note that the white commuter with his better job and benefits tends to have his fare subsidize by the employer and RTD/government to encourage public transit. Yet, the poor tend to buy more individual fares because of no subsidies and inferior job benefits.

I am certainly in favor of more routes to these newer and wealthier areas but again we come down to resources and where the need and the use is greater. Again, I do not believe in RTD spending excessive resources on infinite expanding parking and managing lots; I believe in the big expansion of feeder routes to transfer points, rail stations and Park n' Rides.

Another issue to keep in mind, is that the design of the streets and neighborhoods in many newer areas. There are more cul de sacs, gated communities and individual developments that wind around and do not connect with other contiguous housing developments. These designs do not lend themselves as adaptable to public bus transit as the grid systems of other older established neighborhoods and the older denser parts of the inner cities of the east.

Livecontent

Last edited by livecontent; 07-27-2011 at 10:48 AM..
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Old 07-27-2011, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
7,142 posts, read 8,852,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livecontent View Post
You certainly do not see many bus routes through Cherry Hills Village.
Do you ever do any research or check any of your facts before you post them?

RTD bus routes serving Cherry Hills Village:

12, 24, 35, 40, 46, 105, plus a light rail station with in one quarter mile of the city limits.

Cherry Hills Village - RTD Transportation
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Old 07-27-2011, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
7,142 posts, read 8,852,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorthy View Post
I agree. It seems really unfair to the residents of Englewood to have their city turned into one giant parking lot just so commuters who don't even live in Englewood won't be inconvenienced by having to take the bus, pay a higher fare (thanks to RTD's asinine fare zones) or drive to another station to park. Cushing Park will be the next area to be paved if more spaces are needed in the future.
Just to be clear, I did not mean to sound like a NIMBY for Englewood. It's not that I don't think that Englewood has a responsibility to offer a location for Park and Ride lots for RTD riders. It's just that I think it should be in the form of a parking structure in front of the City Hall. Where it would be more convenient to RTD riders, while at the same time not being a disruption to the residential neighborhood to the North of the station.
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Old 07-27-2011, 08:27 PM
 
5,090 posts, read 13,521,222 times
Reputation: 6928
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaaBoom View Post
Do you ever do any research or check any of your facts before you post them?

RTD bus routes serving Cherry Hills Village:

12, 24, 35, 40, 46, 105, plus a light rail station with in one quarter mile of the city limits.

Cherry Hills Village - RTD Transportation
No, I do not have do any research or check any of my facts. All I have to do is wait for a person to criticize something, he knows nothing about--and that is you. You have not lived in this area for over 20 years. I take buses all the time and I know. You must have nothing to do, in your area, but make comments on this area, which you do not have current information.

You did not have the courtesy and quote my statement, so readers would know what is getting your panties in a knot; but take just take a sentence out of context, so I will:

"All new and wealthier areas have less service than older and poorer areas. That is because the need exist before the service. You certainly do not see many bus routes through Cherry Hills Village. Yes, you can argue that the use would increase if the service exist--the idea of the "chicken or the egg", which came first. However, people who have other more convenient options, "cars", often mean that "use" will not equal the necessary threshold of "need" which would make a route more viable. New Public transit routes are extremely difficult to start and old ones stay forever, sometimes even beyond their usefullness..."
.

For there is only one bus that go through Cherry Hills Village and that is on University, Route 24. That is because there area has many estates and streets do not go through, with the exception of University. Also, there is very little need, which was the reason for my statement.

The bus on University just goes quickly by these stops in Cherry Hills Village because there is few, if any, people getting on or off. Route 24 is provide only to have a continuous bus, north and south of the village from Hampden to Bellview, as there are no other continuous roads.

Also, the rail station is not in Cherry Hills Village. What part of my sentence that you have difficulty understanding as I said you do not see "many" which does mean some buses; and "through" which means, well, through, not around, and not near, or on the periperal.

Do not give me these overhyped links to the city website which says "near" and "in close proximity". Obviously, you cannot understand that information.

Look at the RTD map and you will see a big empty space where there is few bus routes, and that is Cherry Hills Village and Greenwood Village because of estates, little need and no continous street, except University to Arapahoe. Ah, but that would be difficult for you to understand.

Oh, yea, you were the guy who was trying tell us how you understood New York City traffic, and you were never there

So thanks for opening your mouth and "removing all doubt" about what you know.

Livecontent

Last edited by livecontent; 07-27-2011 at 09:17 PM..
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Old 07-27-2011, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
3,111 posts, read 4,888,580 times
Reputation: 5429
Quote:
Originally Posted by livecontent View Post
All new and wealthier areas have less service than older and poorer areas. That is because the need exist before the service. You certainly do not see many bus routes through Cherry Hills Village. Yes, you can argue that the use would increase if the service exist--the idea of the "chicken or the egg", which came first. However, people who have other more convenient options, "cars", often mean that "use" will not equal the necessary threshold of "need" which would make a route more viable. New Public transit routes are extremely difficult to start and old ones stay forever, sometimes even beyond their usefullness.

Keep in mind that the visible "tax" for RTD is on purchasing. So you, who have more of a disposal income; buy more stuff; pay more tax. You will pay that tax weather you use the system or not. That is the way of tax: I pay for football tax and I hate football. It is interesting to note that the white commuter with his better job and benefits tends to have his fare subsidize by the employer and RTD/government to encourage public transit. Yet, the poor tend to buy more individual fares because of no subsidies and inferior job benefits.

I am certainly in favor of more routes to these newer and wealthier areas but again we come down to resources and where the need and the use is greater. Again, I do not believe in RTD spending excessive resources on infinite expanding parking and managing lots; I believe in the big expansion of feeder routes to transfer points, rail stations and Park n' Rides.

Another issue to keep in mind, is that the design of the streets and neighborhoods in many newer areas. There are more cul de sacs, gated communities and individual developments that wind around and do not connect with other contiguous housing developments. These designs do not lend themselves as adaptable to public bus transit as the grid systems of other older established neighborhoods and the older denser parts of the inner cities of the east.

Livecontent
First of all, the southwest portion of the city is much older than you think. Ken Caryl was built out 30 years ago. Many neighborhoods date back to the 1960s as housing for the thousands of workers who worked in Waterton Canyon for Martin Marietta.

Secondly, the grid that exists in the area is comparable to the grid that exists in Centennial, Aurora, and Greenwood Village -- all areas that have better bus service than unincorporated Jefferson County.

You make the comparison of the stadium tax, but you have the same level of accessibility to games and events held at the stadiums as everyone else. When all is said an done, and the Fasttrax buildout is complete, unincorporated Jeffco will have the worst access to light rail, BRT, and commuter rail in the metropolitan area, yet we paid the same tax as everyone else.
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Old 07-27-2011, 08:53 PM
 
5,090 posts, read 13,521,222 times
Reputation: 6928
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidv View Post
First of all, the southwest portion of the city is much older than you think. Ken Caryl was built out 30 years ago. Many neighborhoods date back to the 1960s as housing for the thousands of workers who worked in Waterton Canyon for Martin Marietta.

Secondly, the grid that exists in the area is comparable to the grid that exists in Centennial, Aurora, and Greenwood Village -- all areas that have better bus service than unincorporated Jefferson County.

You make the comparison of the stadium tax, but you have the same level of accessibility to games and events held at the stadiums as everyone else. When all is said an done, and the Fasttrax buildout is complete, unincorporated Jeffco will have the worst access to light rail, BRT, and commuter rail in the metropolitan area, yet we paid the same tax as everyone else.
I agree that South Jeffco will not have the advantages of the Fastracks in regard to rail and BRT, as these highly populated and important area deserves. Keep in mind that Fastracks is not all about rail and BRT. It is also about increasing bus routes and service; more park n' rides; more call n' rides. Unfortunately, this area comes up short on these improvements.

Yes, grids do exist in the South Jeffco area and there are neighborhoods that are older, especially around Southwest Plaza and the North. My statement was a general statement and I can not cover all areas in details--I was trying to make a point about street design and bus access.

I hate football but I pay the tax, without angst, because it was voted by the majority and I accept that situation. I will never go a game but many football people will never go to a library, an opera, a theatre, a museum and those also are supported by a majority vote for the cultural tax. So, these people have to accept that situation. The same can be said for public transit which many people, pay for, and will never use. It is just the way of the world.

I went to the meetings when they asked for imput on the rails. Many of us brought up issues of areas that were not served well and south Jeffco was discussed. I have been to many meetings on public transit on many rail corridors, over 25 years. It was just a passion for me. That is why I understand much of what I state in my posts. I saw the planning process up close but there is much more, that goes on behind closed door, that benefit powerful people, richer cities and commercial developers. Again, just the way of the world. I would add, that it is my personal opinion, that South Jeffco is not well represented because it is mostly unincorporated. It would benefit the residents if they would move to form a new municipality or be absorbed into Lakewood to the North.

But the real reason, these early rail lines exist because the right of way existed along the commercial rail lines, on the Southwest. It was just an easier way to go with an initial rail placement. The same reason that the West line is the first line to be built to Lakewood because it is mostly along a abandoned rail line and the Lakewood Gulch. Again, it is the same for the other corridors--the easy path is taken so there is less hassle with taking property in eminent domain.

In the far distance future, there will be other lines going across the metro area, connecting these early rail lines. I have seen some long range plans that show what is hoped. However, we will be gone by then.

So, I do agree.

Livecontent

Last edited by livecontent; 07-27-2011 at 09:21 PM..
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Old 07-27-2011, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
7,142 posts, read 8,852,708 times
Reputation: 7732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
Agree. When riders have to make a "mode change" between highway and rail it adds time and detracts from usefulness. Back in DC, the DC Metro ran buses from/to the neighborhoods on a frequent basis and charged 25-cents bus fare. Needless to say, buses were packed because the service was good. I can easily foresee a network of feeder buses running through Denver's neighborhoods to get people out of their cars and avoid building tons of parking lots.
That is a good point, but I don't think you will ever see that happen in Denver. When I lived in Denver, I was riding the 0/0Limited on Broadway when the light rail first opened. So I started transferring to the light rail to complete my trip to downtown.

The first issues I had with that. RTD cut the bus service south of I-25 & Broadway to free up busses for more frequent service between Civic Center and Broadway & I-25. Which was necessary because of increased ridership due people who had to get to I-25 & Broadway to catch other busses, and were not served by the light rail.

The second issue was, that going from catching my bus in a nice warm Civic Center Station, to waiting for it in an open parking lot at I-25 & Broadway. With the wind and snow swirling around me, and having to wait longer for it (due to the first issue), was a big down grade.

It was an easy decision for me to make to start driving to Broadway & I-25 to catch the light rail. And looking at the current bus schedules I can see that service on the 0 has only gotten worse since I left Denver.

One of the early promises about light rail that RTD failed to keep. Was that the busses freed up from Downtown routes by construction of light rail, would be used to expand bus service in areas not serviced by light rail, and to provide more frequent service linking bus riders to light rail.

By the time light rail construction got started and economic realities set in, their attitude changed to, well light rail will pay for it's self with all the busses that it will take off the streets.

This seems to be the same thing that has happened in other cities that have built light rail systems such as Portland. Where light rail also cannibalized bus service.

If I was going to take a guess at what the futures holds. I'd guess that this trend will continue and most cities will be served by a hand full of light rail lines, and a hand full of bus routes feeding the light rail. Most of the riders will drive to the light rail stations, and the handicapped will get there by Access a Ride service.
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Old 07-27-2011, 09:35 PM
 
5,090 posts, read 13,521,222 times
Reputation: 6928
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaaBoom View Post
That is a good point, but I don't think you will ever see that happen in Denver. When I lived in Denver, I was riding the 0/0Limited on Broadway when the light rail first opened. So I started transferring to the light rail to complete my trip to downtown.

The first issues I had with that. RTD cut the bus service south of I-25 & Broadway to free up busses for more frequent service between Civic Center and Broadway & I-25. Which was necessary because of increased ridership due people who had to get to I-25 & Broadway to catch other busses, and were not served by the light rail.

The second issue was, that going from catching my bus in a nice warm Civic Center Station, to waiting for it in an open parking lot at I-25 & Broadway. With the wind and snow swirling around me, and having to wait longer for it (due to the first issue), was a big down grade.

It was an easy decision for me to make to start driving to Broadway & I-25 to catch the light rail. And looking at the current bus schedules I can see that service on the 0 has only gotten worse since I left Denver.

One of the early promises about light rail that RTD failed to keep. Was that the busses freed up from Downtown routes by construction of light rail, would be used to expand bus service in areas not serviced by light rail, and to provide more frequent service linking bus riders to light rail.

By the time light rail construction got started and economic realities set in, their attitude changed to, well light rail will pay for it's self with all the busses that it will take off the streets.

This seems to be the same thing that has happened in other cities that have built light rail systems such as Portland. Where light rail also cannibalized bus service.

If I was going to take a guess at what the futures holds. I'd guess that this trend will continue and most cities will be served by a hand full of light rail lines, and a hand full of bus routes feeding the light rail. Most of the riders will drive to the light rail stations, and the handicapped will get there by Access a Ride service.
Your post is full of out of date information and statements and you misunderstand facts and situations. "Since I left Denver"???You left Denver over 20 yrs. ago. Why do you bother harping on issues that you have little or no knowledge?

Livecontent
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Old 07-27-2011, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
3,111 posts, read 4,888,580 times
Reputation: 5429
Quote:
Originally Posted by livecontent View Post
I agree that South Jeffco will not have the advantages of the Fastracks in regard to rail and BRT, as these highly populated and important area deserves. Keep in mind that Fastracks is not all about rail and BRT. It is also about increasing bus routes and service; more park n' rides; more call n' rides. Unfortunately, this area comes up short on these improvements.

Yes, grids do exist in the South Jeffco area and there are neighborhoods that are older, especially around Southwest Plaza and the North. My statement was a general statement and I can not cover all areas in details--I was trying to make a point about street design and bus access.

I hate football but I pay the tax, without angst, because it was voted by the majority and I accept that situation. I will never go a game but many football people will never go to a library, an opera, a theatre, a museum and those also are supported by a majority vote for the cultural tax. So, these people have to accept that situation. The same can be said for public transit which many people, pay for, and will never use. It is just the way of the world.

I went to the meetings when they asked for imput on the rails. Many of us brought up issues of areas that were not served well and south Jeffco was discussed. I have been to many meetings on public transit on many rail corridors, over 25 years. It was just a passion for me. That is why I understand much of what I state in my posts. I saw the planning process up close but there is much more, that goes on behind closed door, that benefit powerful people, richer cities and commercial developers. Again, just the way of the world. I would add, that it is my personal opinion, that South Jeffco is not well represented because it is mostly unincorporated. It would benefit the residents if they would move to form a new municipality or be absorbed into Lakewood to the North.

But the real reason, these early rail lines exist because the right of way existed along the commercial rail lines, on the Southwest. It was just an easier way to go with an initial rail placement. The same reason that the West line is the first line to be built to Lakewood because it is mostly along a abandoned rail line and the Lakewood Gulch. Again, it is the same for the other corridors--the easy path is taken so there is less hassle with taking property in eminent domain.

In the far distance future, there will be other lines going across the metro area, connecting these early rail lines. I have seen some long range plans that show what is hoped. However, we will be gone by then.

So, I do agree.

Livecontent
Unfortunately we cannot even get call n ride in our area. That service is seemingly only extended to areas that have better bus service than we do. Perhaps you are right about the unincorporated area not having the political clout.

I do think, however, a grass roots efforts to get out of RTD might produce results. I don't see it happening though.
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Old 07-27-2011, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
7,142 posts, read 8,852,708 times
Reputation: 7732
Quote:
Originally Posted by livecontent View Post
Your post is full of out of date information and statements and you misunderstand facts and situations. "Since I left Denver"???You left Denver over 20 yrs. ago.
You don't know me. You know nothing about me. I wish you would stop talking about me. Hopefully a moderator will remove this garbage.
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