Good place to live, young professional, early 30s (Denver, Arvada: health insurance, mortgage)
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If you've lived in all of those places than you should know that a combined household income of $165,000 is more than enough to live comfortably on. Besides, you have a computer and are an intelligent guy, you have a law degree, surely you realize that California housing and cost of living has artificially inflated itself WAY beyond what it costs to live in middle America. I guess it's just an issue of perspective. For anyone living outside of California or the Northeast the question is ridiculous. If you are making over 6 figures than you are technically considered rich. But if you are accustomed to California living I guess that could skew your perspective a bit.
I would consider scraping by being barely making enough to pay your monthly bills and having little to no discretionary income.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daimyo75
First of all, how is making $125k the same as living the millionaire lifestyle? I agree it is a good salary but by no means am I one of the super-rich as many seem to imply. As I mentioned earlier, in California this is barely even middle class nowadays. Middle class as in being able to purchase a modest house.
Was my choice of words perhaps not the best? Yeah. I've readily agreed to that, I could have inserted "can I make it, considering that I want to own a home and live a middle-class life." My mistake was in assuming that that was implied in my looking into neighbourhoods where I could raise a child. And that was an inappropriate assumption as it has become prohibitive to purchase houses in many cities.
But the fact that this seems to be a recurring annoyance among some in this forum leads me to think that there is some underlying jealousy that is rearing its ugly head and it is masked in terms of picking apart my wording, without giving me the benefit of doubt, and specially after I've tried to explain my position. The fact that my subsequent posts, stating that I want to be able to just live a middle-class life and own a home, are somehow being translated into "Can I live richly (sic!) in Denver?" I think is indicative of of willingness to misinterpret what I'm writing.
Moreover, if it sounds condescending (especially after my explanations) I really don't care. The intention was not condescending and I don't think it was phrased in a way in which a reasonable person would necessarily think it to be condescending. But if people want to view it that way after my explanations then it's their problem. Those people obviously are bringing their own preconceptions/insecurities about what I'm trying to say and have no desire to revise those preconceptions even after I explain my position.
I'm not going to make excuses for making what I will be making, specially since I've worked my way up from a ramen noodle salary of $35k (not to speak of my first job right out of college paying a whooping $8/hr!). I believe that anybody can make more money if they put in the effort, dedication, and vision. One of my best friends is a single mother who went through law school while raising her kid. She's graduated and will be making the same as I will. Was she perhaps an exception? Yeah, but not exceptionally intelligent nor exceptionally rich. Just exceptionally devoted. So If you think it is unfair that I will be making what I'm making... do something about instead of bitching on the internet.
One last thing: I doubt MANY in here JUST scrape by. If you have internet, a computer, or a TV. If you own a home. An air conditioner. If you have a car, then I could argue that you are not MERELY scraping by. There are people who are truly poor. I didn't have any of those things (well except a computer) coming out of college and I never considered myself poor. I've lived in Europe (where they are not poor) and many lacked the luxuries that Americans take for granted (such as a cars, multiple TVs etc). I've lived in Central America, where there ARE truly poor people who would kill to have the chance that most Americans have.
In conclusion, I don't feel bad about my salary or that I want to move to Denver, or that I omitted that I wanted to buy a house. If anybody wants to bash - bash away.
Edited: One last thing. I was considering those neighbourhoods because they were recommended to me. If you read my first post you will find that I was skeptical of them because of the people who did recommed them to me (and because of the names)...
Clearly a lawyer, and definitely an advocate. But a bit thin skinned for the internet. You're arguing with people you don't know. Just say "To each their own" and let it slide.
That aside, most of the places mentioned
by folks here are old parts of town (in that they've been around a while). Wash Park has been around a while and has a reputation for drawing a younger crowd. The general belief is that people move to the less walking friendly areas and burbs when they want to settle down. This is where I would have first suggested.
Coming from San Francisco, I found the new Stapleton area remarkably homey, with a mixed-use planned community concept. We couldn't get over the 350k for row-home though. But hey, they have row-homes. It's reasonably close to down town and has a younger crowd around your age (young enough to be buying in a new community, old enough to afford >300k). They have single-family houses too, but you are paying a premium for location and amenities.
We chose to buy in the 'burbs (Reunion) instead. Our conversation went like this: you can get THIS for HOW MUCH? WHERE DO I SIGN? This after living in SF in a 2 bedroom where the rent was almost twice our mortgage for a 4/3.
First of all, I don't think you can necessarily draw conclusion about cost of life in Denver after living in various other countries. Living in London, you would probably need a salary in dollars twice of what you are making in the US after accounting for cost of living and the cost of the pound. Living in Norway/Sweden/Denmark, the costs of living are also extremely high, among the highest in the world, and more expensive than LA and made even more so by high tax level. On the other side of the spectrum is $165,000 enough to live like a king in, say, Honduras? Yes. What do we learn from this in terms of Denver? Not much...
Do I have a computer and am I an intelligent guy. Yes to the first, maybe to the second (although I'm sure some here would be willing to dispute that...). Did I use my computer to try to find out how the cost of living compares. Yes. By posting in this forum.
About scraping by not being able to pay bills... there was interesting article... I think it was BusinessWeek or Time. Let me see if I can dig it up:
"the Schuetts earn a comfortable living, with Amy, 39, pulling in $150,000 a year as a hospital psychiatrist. True, their income did take a big hit last summer when Brian got laid off from his job as a sales rep for a pharmaceutical firm (he'd been making a base salary of $82,000 a year, plus commissions as high as $24,000)."
The Schuetts don't have any child-care bills (Brian is now a stay-at-home dad). They don't have credit-card debt. They don't splurge on fancy vacations. And they live in a nice but definitely not luxurious home on a three-acre plot in Elkhorn, Neb., just west of Omaha, where the cost of living is, well, livable.
Yet, says Amy, "We live from one paycheck to the next, we're struggling to save and we never seem to have enough money to do anything fun."
This brings me back to the point about what we as Americans are being skewed into taking for granted. You can make a lot of money and still have problems paying your bills.
Am I myself perhaps a bit skewed in my perspective of costs of living, but in the opposite direction? Maybe I'm still thinking in terms of my pre-law experiences... I've never lived on a $125k (until my girl gets a job) salary, and I've never owned a house. I've never had children. So I don't know how much that kind of stuff ends up costing. But I do see people who I think make a lot of money, who struggle. Having children, they have to move back in with their parents. There are articles about how this generation is the first to do worse than their parents in over 50 years, I just talked to a friend who owns a company whose health cost bill went up 20% for his employees this year, about huge amounts of bankrupcies because of the sub primes, etc.
There are numerous articles about how Denver is a boom town. Every issue of Outside and any other adventure mag touts Denver as the place to be. I would think that real estate would not be that low. The fact that Denver is quite isolated should also bring up the price of groceries etc (just as in Hawaii). Have I checked cost of living calculators. No, I thought it would be better to ask real people.
PlaneFast. Yeah. You are right. After I wrote that long post, I mostly felt stupid... Why am I arguing over the internet??? Haha... Law school might have made me a bit combative...
On the other hand, I'm very grateful to all of the serious responses and suggestion from people on the forum as well! I've been spending lots of time trying to dig more info about the neighbourhoods and seem to be making progress in getting a sense of Denver.
Yeah, I'm not sure about the whole settling down business. I think my gf wouldn't mind living in a more quiet neighbourhood, maybe even in the burbs. But I kind of like a faster pace and more stimulation around me. But I'm also very aware that the suburbs usually have better schools and less crime... So who knows... maybe renting for the first year would be better until we get a sense of the neighbourhoods. Then again I haven't even decided whether Denver or Seattle! Both seem great places, but each with minor drawbacks...
From my experience, I have learned that new law school graduates do not have the best life. They work too hard, many times 80-100 hrs. a week. They are in cutthroat and vicious competition with other young lawyers for a very few partnership position. They do most of the dirty, repetitive,boring mindless, tasks, while the partners enjoy most of the reward. The future holds for most, no partnership, after all the years of drudgery and there are more than enough lawyers to take their place when they fail.
In Law, your are right up front in a nasty, sometimes deceitful litigation environment where you see the worse of the world. Many drop out and use their law experience in other fields, or government work which may not have the same glory, prestige and rewards they were trying to achieve. Many leave the law totally to find a more peaceful and enjoyable life.
I wish you the best in your career and you are going to earn your salary. Of course, you know already the problems of your profession. I am writing this say to any readers, you have nothing to be jealous about--law is hard work.
From my experience, I have learned that new law school graduates do not have the best life. They work too hard, many times 80-100 hrs. a week. They are in cutthroat and vicious competition with other young lawyers for a very few partnership position. They do most of the dirty, repetitive,boring mindless, tasks, while the partners enjoy most of the reward. The future holds for most, no partnership, after all the years of drudgery and there are more than enough lawyers to take their place when they fail.
In Law, your are right up front in a nasty, sometimes deceitful litigation environment where you see the worse of the world. Many drop out and use their law experience in other fields, or government work which may not have the same glory, prestige and rewards they were trying to achieve. Many leave the law totally to find a more peaceful and enjoyable life.
I wish you the best in your career and you are going to earn your salary. Of course, you know already the problems of your profession. I am writing this say to any readers, you have nothing to be jealous about--law is hard work.
This is very true. And we definatelty are not rich, confortable, maybe. I am not taking a vacation this year because of the decline in the real estate market and fears of continuing employment and having to go back to a firm. I had to listen to my client explain that he bought a $15,000 vacation at a charity event and let it pass without going because he forgot.
In any event, I'd really like more info about the legal market in Denver. I am considering a move to Denver, Salt Lake or Boise. They all seem nicer than the Las Vegas wasteland. I'll just start a new thread.
I have to agree as well with the above. I have been advised that 1850 billable hours a year is a minimum target, but more is "strongly and emphatically encouraged" and perhaps only 80% of the time at work is billable...
I am particularly interested in seeing how partner and senior associated treat juniors, and hopefully trying not to be sucked into that lifestyle of competing who can stay the longest. I've heard horror stories... but I've also heard very positive experiences from a few (admittedly a small minority). I'm still fairly positive that I might be one of the few.
But, as you said, many bail when they see they are fighting a losing battle. I guess I could always apply to the State Department if all else fails (and I've paid off my school loans)...
Being able to live comfortably on $125k is NOT unique to California. I am an attorney in FL in a similar income bracket and money is very tight in our household- AND we have no student loans, credit card bills, etc. or fancy cars but we do have a few children. [a $270k mortgage costs us about $3,500 a month w/ taxes and insurance]
I have several friends who live in the NE (New York, Philly, Boston) and they are struggling with the same money issues.
I can't wait to move to Denver to cut my mortgage payment in half and live in a house twice the size (w/ 10 times the yard).
As for quality of life as an atty, this depends on the type of work that you do. My hours are basically 9 to 5 and I don't work weekends. Of course, I could make a lot more money working in a pressure cooker environment (2,200 billable hours is the norm in FL)
Being able to live comfortably on $125k is NOT unique to California. I am an attorney in FL in a similar income bracket and money is very tight in our household- AND we have no student loans, credit card bills, etc. or fancy cars but we do have a few children. [a $270k mortgage costs us about $3,500 a month w/ taxes and insurance]
I have several friends who live in the NE (New York, Philly, Boston) and they are struggling with the same money issues.
I can't wait to move to Denver to cut my mortgage payment in half and live in a house twice the size (w/ 10 times the yard).
As for quality of life as an atty, this depends on the type of work that you do. My hours are basically 9 to 5 and I don't work weekends. Of course, I could make a lot more money working in a pressure cooker environment (2,200 billable hours is the norm in FL)
<shrug> I guess I'll never understand you guys. How do you not live comfortably on a $125k salary? And in FL, of all places! My parents made only about $35,000 a year and while we didn't live rich, I'd say we lived fairly comfortably. I got new clothes and shoes when I needed them, we took vacations, drove decent cars, lived in a nice house, etc. Granted, we lived in a very cheap area of the country, but you are talking about making over $100,000 than my parents and complaining that you can't live comfortably? Maybe none of you are living comfortably because you are blowing all your money on Lexuses and plasma screen TVs and 3000 sqft houses and cell phones for all your kids and yadda yadda yadda. I live BY MYSELF, in San Diego, CALIFORNIA, less than 1 mile from the ocean, and on a $42k a year salary I can still SAVE almost $7,000 a year! That's SAVE $7,000 a year!! How do you make 3-4 times that amount and not live comfortably, I don't get it. Making the same salary as you guys I could save almost $80,000 a year. Granted I have no kids to support but my kids aren't going to cost me $80,000 a year, sorry. If you're making over $120k year in household income you are upper-middle class, period.
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Haha... Law school might have made me a bit combative... 
