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Old 04-02-2012, 12:28 PM
 
894 posts, read 1,494,427 times
Reputation: 183
[quote=inskeep303;16213678]
and a decent % of mexican americans are moving into chicago in recent years. [quote]. LMAO what Chicago has more Mexicans than Denver has people as a city..that has been true since the 90s
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:01 PM
 
12 posts, read 20,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_cat View Post
Actually there are many metros that have more crime than Chicago (Memphis, Little Rock, New Orleans, Birmingham, Atlanta, Charlotte, Richmond, DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Detroit, Buffalo, St. Louis) and others that are about tied (Dallas, Houston, Milwaukee).

It just so happens that Denver is not one of those places. So if your overriding quality of life issue is fear of crime, then Denver may be a great choice.

On the other hand, you may well find that no place in Denver is any safer than Lincoln Park/Lakeview/Bucktown/Wicker Park/downtown Chicago, and that you have sacrificed a lot of amenities for the illusion of safety. But that is your choice.
Sigh, OK one at a time.

1) that list of cities is like a who's who (or where's where) of places I would never even consider living. That's like saying Rio or Mexico City has more crime. Well, I'm sure they do, but I wouldn't ever consider moving there. My point wasn't "Chicago has the most crime of any city", but rather, "Chicago has more crime than Denver", which is absolutely true.

2) I never said that an overriding quality of life issue is "fear of crime". Quite the opposite, and if you had read my original post above, you would see that crime is one piece of many data elements. Again, Denver has Chicago beat in almost every category, so this is a piece of the puzzle. An important piece, but just a piece.

3) Statistically speaking, your third statement is false. It also doesn't make sense, and is a meaningless argument. For policing purposes, "downtown chicago" is the loop proper, which isn't very big, doesn't have that many residents, and is largely a ghost town past 6:30 or 7 at night M-F. So yeah, they probably have very little crime compared to some sh*thole neighborhood in Denver, but it's an absurd comparison.

And those "amenities" you speak of... Yeah, I mentioned those in my original post as well. Lots of them are overrated, or expensive, or hard to enjoy unless you live right next to them (traffic, expense, etc). Yeah, what about the lake!? Try $100 per foot, per year, slip fee for your boat (if you can even get a spot in a harbor). So a 30 foot boat (not big for lake Michigan) is $3,000 just to keep it parked at the dock (the cost of a nice vacation every single year). That doesn't include winter costs, or storage, or the cost of the boat. So yeah, for the low cost of $3,000/year plus $30 grand or so for a decent boat, you can enjoy Chicago's greatest amenity. Oh, just sit on the shore you say? yeah, real enjoyable when you get bugged by panhandlers begging for money, or when they have to close the lake-path because of gang mob action or gang fights (yeah, those happen all summer, and no, you'll probably never hear about them). Plus, how long can you sit there and stare at some water??

So on an objective basis, I'm sorry, Chicago loses hands down. Like, not even close.

**Edit: Seriously though, if you like Chicago, then good for you. I'm done "debating" if Chicago is better/worse than Denver. From an objective data perspective, Denver dominates Chicago in almost every category (Denver has slightly higher energy costs (electricity and natural gas) but way lower gasoline costs, and also water supply is obviously more secure in Chicago) so there is nothing to argue. It's proven, end of story.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:30 PM
 
Location: NY
778 posts, read 392,118 times
Reputation: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthDenverGuy View Post
Rootsy,
I repectfully disagree! I would never be happy in Chicago. If you are into outdoor stuff as I am, Denver has Chicago beat by miles. I mountain bike all the time locally and the high country, we have over 600 miles of paved paths here in town if you bike, walk, or rollerblade. The climate is infinitely better - winter in Chicago is about as bad as it gets. I guess if you are into night clubs, bistros etc, then Chicago may be your bag. And it is humid there, horrible in the summers and the winters. And we haven't even discussed the Rockies! Denver is the number one empty nester destination in the US by a wide margin - I wonder why?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, says someone who has never lived in Upstate NY, UP of Michigan or Minnesota.


Gimme a break. Chicago's winters are ****ing overrated.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:39 PM
 
85 posts, read 75,075 times
Reputation: 152
Not Chicago.

Lake Michigan is not a pretty lake, particularly in the Chicago area where it is one, big post-industrial tangle of blackened steel and rotting, abandoned docklands. The city itself is neither particularly pretty, nor flush with nice views; the surrounding suburbs aren't particularly nice... it's just a big, bland midwestern city, which just happens to be the nation's third largest, but is otherwise hardly remarkable.

Denver is the seat of the Rockies. That reason alone makes Denver a better pick than Chicago. Oh, and the political scene is far better. Chicago politics (read: rampant, unmitigated, shameless corruption) are the worst in the nation.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:03 PM
 
Location: NY
778 posts, read 392,118 times
Reputation: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockRiver1 View Post
Not sure why I'm throwing my hat in the ring here. I lived in the burbs of Chicago for 2 years, lived in the city itself (north side) for 2 years, and now live in the burbs again for the last 2 years. I am extremely well versed in the inner workings of this city, including the politics, the police force, the corruption, etc.

The people who live here and love it, do so with rose colored glasses on. They love it, well, just because. They cite the street festivals, the lakefront, the "people", etc etc etc. They'll cite Wrigley field, the "bean", the food, Michigan Ave, and the other inexplicable things like the "EL" (elevated train), summers by the lake, etc. If you only care about the surface of where you live, then yeah, you probably live in a nice north side apartment and think it is awesome.

Those things are fine, but there is so much more that determines why a person should or shouldn't live somewhere. Consider the following:

-We have some of the highest taxes in the nation (how about 14% sales tax on prepared food in the city?)

-We have literally the gold standard of corrupt government (482 federal corruption convictions in IL in the last 10 years, Colorado had 95) (as an aside, this costs IL and Chicago residents major money. Court costs aside, sending city contracts to crony buddies and connected families costs just the city of chicago an estimated $500M a year) - Perfect example, LITERALLY TODAY our former gov walked into prison for a 14 year sentence, the 2nd one in a row to go to federal prison. Thanks, littleton for taking that douche off our hands for a while.

-We have worse air quality (chicago: 37 air quality index score, denver: 26)

-IL private non farm job growth in the last decade was -6.9%, CO was+4.8%

-CO and Denver have lower taxes on every single category compared to IL and Chicago (sales, property, income, etc)

-People complain that Denver isn't diverse enough, but chicago is nationally recognized as being the most segregated city in america. If don't buy that, I dare you to leave your comfy Lincoln Park brownstone and head down to the south side or west side. It's all black, and mexican, respectively. And dangerous. Routine in the summer to have 40 or 50 people shot over a weekend - Also, I always hear the argument, "well it's contained within the bad areas so I don't care" First of all, wow. Secondly, if you were a, uh, "troubled youth" from englewood or garfield park, would you rob and rape in your ghetto neighborhood? or would you go to where people have money, walk around like they're in disney world, without a care in the world? Yeah, leave your ear buds in, I'm sure you'll be fine. Oh also, that crime RARELY gets reported, because it made chicago look even worse. Just talk to king richie daley about that one. Or the guy that got his face smashed in with a brick 2 summers ago. Or the irish girl that is brain dead because she got smashed in the head with a bat last year in wicker park/ buck town. yeah.

-Chicago is one of the most anti gun cities in the nation, and has an enormous crime problem. Colorado is a concealed carry shall issue state and has 127,000 law abiding citizens licensed to carry a concealed weapon.

-Denver's city data crime index is 334, chicago's is 586 - BTW chicago's crime stats are so manipulated the FBI won't even use them. Handy tricks include under reporting crime, calling a 9 person drive by 1 incident because it all happened at the same time, etc.

-Yes chicago has public transportation... which is underfunded by millions of dollars a year. Riding the EL is literally hell on earth, between break downs, no AC, bums yelling and begging for money, sitting in pee soaked seats (when you can get one) because they let bums sleep there over night...wow. Every year brings a budget crisis that threatens to shut it down or reduce routes. Prepare for your commute to get even worse.

-IL is running a $8.3B annual budget deficit. CO's is at $1.8. Still not good in CO, but not a doomsday scenario like IL or CA have. Oh yeah, the teacher's and Police/Fire pensions are underfunded, as in, the worst in the nation at 43% - CO's are at 71%

- Obviously the weather. IL sucks, the humidity and bugs absolutely destroy you in the summer. Winter, you get the terrible cold/snow but you can't do anything with it, unless you consider sitting in a bar a good time, or "hiking" in corn fields to be exciting

-Utility costs as measured by the CPI from the BLS puts denver/chicago about even...Denver's utilities are a bit more expensive, but only by about 2%- But on the flip side, gas in chicago is routinely one of the most expensive in the nation...At a state level, IL adds 31 cents tax to every gallon gas...CO is 20 cents.

-Population growth - people are leaving IL, chicago lost 200K residents in the last census. Colorado gained 56K just in the last year

-how about those awesome sporting events? The cubs? Yeah, 3rd most expensive tickets in baseball...Well I'm a white sox fan anyway, oops still 5th most expensive tickets. Rockies are 21st. Parking at the game? Sox park is $25 for the game, coors field is $13.

-Chicago/IL was ranked, at various times, 3rd most miserable city (forbes), 1st most stressful city (forbes), worst state to retire in...CO ranked 5th for best businesses, and 7th for overall well being.

This city is expensive, congested, run by the most corrupt people in the country, and everybody here is OK with it. they say, "chicago is the greatest city on earth" on the news literally every morning. I have data to suggest otherwise.

I am not a pessimist, or an optimist. I am a realist. And the reality of it is, IL and Chicago suck hard when compared to CO and Denver. they just do. You can still live here, it's ok. I don't want you bringing your problems with me next year when I move from this place (CO trip planned for july, again in december, again in april 2013 - fact finding mission to confirm my research).

Again, if you want to live somewhere because you “like it”, that’s fine. But as the outlaw Josey Wales once said, “Don’t p*ss down my back and tell me it’s raining”


Travel to places in Asia like Thailand, look at their garbage problems, and then tell me taxes are bad. I think more Americans who cry about taxes should travel around the world and see more about places that have no tax structure. Public services are not to be taken for granted in America.

Truth is, not all taxes are bad. People love to cite that as a reason to escape somewhere, which is fine, but you dont get nearly as good infrastructure if you dont pay. Im from Upstate NY, and while we are taxed the highest in the country, we do get a lot back in other services.



Guns you say? Is that why two of the worst and most high-profile mass shootings in history have taken place in the Denver metro?


Crime in Chicago? Dont lie or fabricate the numbers. The vast majority of murders are directly associated to fractured gangs, and 75% of the crime takes place in about 20% of the city.


Then again, this thread is in the Denver subforum, so I fully expect a bunch of Denver nonsense in response.

Great, thats fine, because it really comes down to scenery vs. city. The only plus Denver has over Chicago IMO is just that. The scenery, and Denver aint the only place you can get it.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:13 PM
 
Location: NY
778 posts, read 392,118 times
Reputation: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShastatoBaker View Post
Not Chicago.

Lake Michigan is not a pretty lake, particularly in the Chicago area where it is one, big post-industrial tangle of blackened steel and rotting, abandoned docklands. The city itself is neither particularly pretty, nor flush with nice views; the surrounding suburbs aren't particularly nice... it's just a big, bland midwestern city, which just happens to be the nation's third largest, but is otherwise hardly remarkable.

Denver is the seat of the Rockies. That reason alone makes Denver a better pick than Chicago. Oh, and the political scene is far better. Chicago politics (read: rampant, unmitigated, shameless corruption) are the worst in the nation.


Well, if you give a **** about mountains in the first place, and its not the only place to get them. Taking into account both metros in full, thats about the only pro I see for Denver. Only thing I see thats world class in Denver is the mountains, and its not isolated to Denver in that regard either.

Denver doesnt compare IMO, and I have no horse in this race. Im from Upstate NY. The fact that people from both places talk about the winters in both is comical. Ah, the bad winters myth of Chicago. Thats entirely attributed to the size of Chicago and its exposure. Larger city = larger exposure. Chicago winters are about average in comparison to other cities. Two weeks of freezing temps out of 52 is nothing. Grey skies? Makes you appreciate things and have days inside. Hows the skin cancer rate in Denver? Chicago? I can twist things as well.

Denver is far too dry as well. I need humidity. Homogenous culture, cookie cutter/boring suburbs, conservative, no sense of community, lack of greenery/extremely brown, very reserved socially, lack of vibrancy, no large body of water, no major cities within 5-600 miles, etc. etc. I can go on. These are things id rather have even with a family.

Chicago pretty much has everything except for mountains. Only place Denver has the advantage.

And I dont wanna see anything about the taxes/subpar schools in Chicago cause its the same in Denver.


I come from the Northeast, and while we have the Adirondacks here and lots of lakes, I feel that that is good enough as far as scenery goes. Dont necessarily need massive mountains. I find it that I miss the greenery the more out west I am. Chicago has its share of greenery, forest, parks. Id say it has just the right amount you need for a city that size. If not, drive further up to WI or MN.

Last edited by Heyooooo; 11-19-2012 at 09:47 PM..
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:18 PM
 
Location: NY
778 posts, read 392,118 times
Reputation: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockRiver1 View Post
Sigh, OK one at a time.

1) that list of cities is like a who's who (or where's where) of places I would never even consider living. That's like saying Rio or Mexico City has more crime. Well, I'm sure they do, but I wouldn't ever consider moving there. My point wasn't "Chicago has the most crime of any city", but rather, "Chicago has more crime than Denver", which is absolutely true.

2) I never said that an overriding quality of life issue is "fear of crime". Quite the opposite, and if you had read my original post above, you would see that crime is one piece of many data elements. Again, Denver has Chicago beat in almost every category, so this is a piece of the puzzle. An important piece, but just a piece.

3) Statistically speaking, your third statement is false. It also doesn't make sense, and is a meaningless argument. For policing purposes, "downtown chicago" is the loop proper, which isn't very big, doesn't have that many residents, and is largely a ghost town past 6:30 or 7 at night M-F. So yeah, they probably have very little crime compared to some sh*thole neighborhood in Denver, but it's an absurd comparison.

And those "amenities" you speak of... Yeah, I mentioned those in my original post as well. Lots of them are overrated, or expensive, or hard to enjoy unless you live right next to them (traffic, expense, etc). Yeah, what about the lake!? Try $100 per foot, per year, slip fee for your boat (if you can even get a spot in a harbor). So a 30 foot boat (not big for lake Michigan) is $3,000 just to keep it parked at the dock (the cost of a nice vacation every single year). That doesn't include winter costs, or storage, or the cost of the boat. So yeah, for the low cost of $3,000/year plus $30 grand or so for a decent boat, you can enjoy Chicago's greatest amenity. Oh, just sit on the shore you say? yeah, real enjoyable when you get bugged by panhandlers begging for money, or when they have to close the lake-path because of gang mob action or gang fights (yeah, those happen all summer, and no, you'll probably never hear about them). Plus, how long can you sit there and stare at some water??

So on an objective basis, I'm sorry, Chicago loses hands down. Like, not even close.

**Edit: Seriously though, if you like Chicago, then good for you. I'm done "debating" if Chicago is better/worse than Denver. From an objective data perspective, Denver dominates Chicago in almost every category (Denver has slightly higher energy costs (electricity and natural gas) but way lower gasoline costs, and also water supply is obviously more secure in Chicago) so there is nothing to argue. It's proven, end of story.


How much do you expect these things to cost?

Youre in a world class city. Frankly, the costs in Chicago are quite a ****ing bargain for what youre getting. People in NY, SF, Boston are laughing at you.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:23 AM
 
85 posts, read 75,075 times
Reputation: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyooooo View Post
How much do you expect these things to cost?

Youre in a world class city. Frankly, the costs in Chicago are quite a ****ing bargain for what youre getting. People in NY, SF, Boston are laughing at you.
You know, for someone who claims to have 'no iron in this fire,' you appear to spend a lot of time glossing over Chicago's severe problems, and the ignoring multiple attributes and excellent qualities belonging to Denver. In fact, your posts are laced through with little other than outrageous hyperbole. You might as well be standing on top of a high school gymnasium, shouting obscenities. I mean, seriously, who are comments like:

Quote:
Larger city = larger exposure.
Quote:
Hows the skin cancer rate in Denver? Chicago?
Quote:
Denver is far too dry as well. I need humidity.
Quote:
we have the Adirondacks here and lots of lakes, I feel that that is good enough as far as scenery goes.
... supposed to convince? Are you actually intending for people to be swayed by this nonsense? The scenery in central NY is 'good enough' so that's fine for anyone? Denver is 'too dry?' Compared to where? Portland, OR? What the heck does exposure have to do with anything? We're not all budding hand models.

You sound like a Chicago transplant bitter that your city isn't generally considered to be as great as you think it is. When I look at Chicago, all I see is an overblown midwestern railroad hub past its prime. Oh, and just an FYI, I'd take Denver sports over Chicago sports any day of the week. WONDERFUL performance by your Bears tonight on national television.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:24 AM
 
59 posts, read 50,763 times
Reputation: 31
Lived in Denver and visited Chicago many many times? Denver for the weather with out a doubt!
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
3,005 posts, read 1,223,798 times
Reputation: 2447
Default A tale of two Cities

I, too have lived in both Chicago and Denver. Good about Chicago--the transportation system is absolutely superb, regardless of what a previous poster stated. I rode the train from Naperville to the Loop for work and my first year there only put 4000 miles of the P/U. Need a cab? Don't call one like in Denver, just walk outside the office door and raise your hand. If you have to wait more than a minute something is seriously wrong downtown.

Chicago has some of the most eclectic eating establishments anywhere in the country. Even some of the fast food joints (not chains)downtown have earned very high marks for tastiness, despite the caloric intake!

I'm a big fan of plays and Chicago beats Denver all to pieces with Broadway style plays as well as smaller, lesser known plays.

The scenery from some of the high rises on the lake is simply gorgeous---however look West and as far as you can see there is urban sprawl.

Denver is smaller, and although Denverites think it is a traffic nightmare, they probably have not driven on the expressways in Chicago where there are only two speeds, 80 mph and dead stop.

Denver is far more laid back compared to Chicago. You can stroll in Denver, you'd get run over by those "walking" in Chicago, especially at rush hour. Getting out of Denver is about a twenty minute drive to head up into the foothills going toward the mountains. The natural beauty scenery is far better than Chicago because from most parts of Denver you can view the splendor of the Rocky Mountains.

For sports teams, both cities have the same in terms of "big league" professional sports, and although one person ran down the Cubs as perennial losers, it's not because of their fan base. Attend a Rockies game where the Cubs are visiting and there are darn near as many Cubbies as Rockies.

Crime, both cities have plenty, and Colorado's more infamous ones have gained a lot of national attention. But we are a gun-toting nation, right or wrong, and no one is EVER going to take away the nearly one billion guns in the United States, despite ultra-conservatives thinking it's on every Democratic agenda. It's ludicrous. Sociologically the higher the population the higher the crime rate seems to be. So it is what it is.

Between the two, if I were able to have a choice (I'm in Dallas right now) I would pick Denver because that more laid back life style is better for me. But as previously stated, there are terrific things about Chicago, too.

The moderator should close this thread, because the bottom line is---it's going to be personal preference for just about everyone, not about which city is better. And that's my tale of these two cities!

Last edited by Wardendresden; 11-20-2012 at 10:12 AM.. Reason: grammer correction
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