Gang War in Northeast Denver (neighborhood, tax, living in)

[Cyborgt800]

I do.
Libertarian in that regard.
The only drugs that should not be OTC are antibiotics.

I see! So....you want people to be able to get high and do stupid/dangerous stuff but you want to restrict people that need healing...

[SkyDog77]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

Debates can go on about some currently illegal drugs, but there is no way that meth or heroin should be legal--EVER. Both, meth especially, wind up being a death sentence for many, if not most of the people that use them. Not to mention the havoc both cause for the families and friends of the users. As far as people's freedoms go, the old saying holds true, "Your freedom to swing your fist ends at the end of my nose." As far a giving people want they want as an excuse for allowing them to do it legally, that dog don't hunt, either--not when what they do also ruins the lives of people around them.

Just because some people disobey a law, it's not an excuse to do away with the law. Lots of people disobey traffic laws. So, should we just abandon all traffic laws and let people do whatever they want on the roads because of it? It would be anarchy. Same argument about the borders. If I build a fence around my house or place of business with concertina wire, there will be some people who will manage to get through it to steal something, but most thieves won't. I'd certainly rather deal with the one guy that gets through once in awhile than have 200 people walk in unrestrained and loot the place.

All of this goes back to very fundamental problem in modern America. People forgot that with freedom comes responsibility. You can't have the first without the second. And if the second fades away, the first won't be long in leaving, either. And that is exactly where we are.

You are allowing your emotional distaste for drugs, specifically heroin and meth, to cloud logic. Yes they are bad, but keeping them illegal is not helping the problem. A very logical, data driven argument can be made to show that it is actually making the problem much worse.

This is not easy stuff.

Just because people disobey a law is not a reason to get rid of a law, but it is a good reason to examine whether or not the law is actually serving its purpose. In this case it most certainly is not.

Criminalizing drugs makes addict criminals. It doesn't stop people from becoming addicts.

Can you honestly sit there and look someone in the eye and say that the war on drugs is working?

[SkyDog77]

Originally Posted by Cyborgt800

I see! So....you want people to be able to get high and do stupid/dangerous stuff but you want to restrict people that need healing...

People are already getting high. You just want them to be criminals.

And are you saying that antibiotics should be over the counter??.

Dave did not say people should not be able to get them, he said they shouldn't be available over the counter. This makes perfect sense. Abuse of antibiotics is a much greater public health threat.

[Cyborgt800]

So ...now it's all about HEALTH?

[SkyDog77]

Originally Posted by Cyborgt800

So ...now it's all about HEALTH?

A massive outbreak of antibiotic resistant illnesses due to misuse of antibiotics is most certainly a scary proposition. It affects everyone. Not just those who choose to use drugs irresponsibly. But again, if you can't see the difference I'm not sure that I can help you.

Drug treatment versus incarceration is also about public health, but I doubt you understand that either. Lock them all away and throw away the key. Nevermind that we are paying for it.

[Cyborgt800]

I love it when you assign an argument to me that I didn't make! Every time I poke a hole in an argument you guys assign some sort of argument to me then try and counter it...and you say I don't understand. LOL You can only build strawmen and deflect. I haven't seen one valid point made yet.

FWIW this thread has massively derailed. The pro-drug users have taken over...this thread is about gang activity.

Facts are that gangs will always be there until you make the penalties too great to risk being in one.

All other details are irrelevant! They will do what they do despite things being legal/illegal.

[SkyDog77]

Originally Posted by Cyborgt800

I love it when you assign an argument to me that I didn't make! Every time I poke a hole in an argument you guys assign some sort of argument to me then try and counter it...and you say I don't understand. LOL You can only build strawmen and deflect. I haven't seen one valid point made yet.

FWIW this thread has massively derailed. The pro-drug users have taken over...this thread is about gang activity.

Facts are that gangs will always be there until you make the penalties too great to risk being in one.

All other details are irrelevant! They will do what they do despite things being legal/illegal.

You poked holes in nothing and the only one assigning things that aren't true here is you. I don't use drugs nor am I pro drug use. I dislike idiotic policy. I'm trying to find a better way to minimize the impact of drugs on our society. Prison does not work

Studies show that harsher penalties do not deter habitual offenders. Your entire premise is flawed.

As for straw men, I believe you just said davebarnes wanted to limit access to medicine.

[sholomar]

Originally Posted by Cyborgt800

I see! So....you want people to be able to get high and do stupid/dangerous stuff but you want to restrict people that need healing...

The reason to regulate antibiotic use is because people do not take them properly, and then the bacteria become antibiotic resistant. I don't know if that would be enough for me, I still say antibiotics should also be OTC along with every drug conceivable.. and enough of this stupid carding under 35 nonsense to gamble and buy alcohol. This part of our culture is what puzzles me... so gestapo like are these people who regulate these items.

In Europe people drink as teenagers and the world has not fallen apart.

As far as people abusing painkillers, that's their choice to make. Opening rehab centers would cost far less money than the big institution we have set in place to regulate and criminalize all these substances. If people are found with them.. at worst they should have the drugs seized and given a $100-500 fine and sent on their way. If they are found to be endangering their children or destroying their families because of this drug use, we can escalate the situation as needed and deal with it on a case by case basis, possibly resulting in the addict losing their children. Imprisoning people is not the answer, and does not work. It will turn otherwise harmless addicts into career criminals though and cost us out the butt in taxes not just to keep them in prison, but to keep the whole prison industrial complex and government institutions doing the regulation in place.

[SkyDog77]

Originally Posted by Cyborgt800

I haven't seen one valid point made yet.

Here is why: The Backfire Effect « You Are Not So Smart

The Misconception: When your beliefs are challenged with facts, you alter your opinions and incorporate the new information into your thinking.

The Truth: When your deepest convictions are challenged by contradictory evidence, your beliefs get stronger.

[aedubber]

Gangs could be cleaned up. We could live in a society of a lot less violence.

The main problem is the money , if there is no crime then there are no bails or fines. Our justice system needs criminals to go in and out of prison , we need court hearings , etc... Imagine if we actually put away people that committed crimes ? Imagine if we got rid of all the guilty murderers with a hanging or bullet.

If you clean up the streets , then there wont be money coming in for the law enforcement, lawyers, judges , and government entities.

I will say it again , our jail system it way too cozy and friendly. Thats why it costs so much to house an inmate. They should be in jail suffering and thinking about how they do not want to come back EVER again. I mean hey , you get hot meals, showers, clean clothes, dental , health , cable tv, education , and recess .. And its all free .. Must be nice !