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This is one of my responses to a post written long ago regarding "best" schools. It had to do with the ratings on GreatSchools.net I thought it was worth repeating.
Keep in mind that just because a school receives a rating of 6 doesn't mean the teachers are less hard-working or dedicated. The ratings are based on test-scores. . .period. If the area has a number of immigrants constantly coming in, that will adversely affect test scores. If parents are too busy to read and work with their children, that too will make a negative difference. Kids who cannot pay attention, have personal issues at home, etc. also do not test well. As a teacher, I first look for friendliness of office staff, whether or not the teachers and principal work well together, warm and nurturing environment, evidence of some creativity being fostered and of course, the curriculum.
It is a sad situation to realize that the main indicator of an "excellent" school is test scores. My own children attend a school that receives a "7". No complaints here. Not even sure I'd ever want them at a school that receives a "10" because all of the instruction would be test-driven. Go with what feels right to you, but just wanted to offer my thoughts.
My comments in "mimeograph" purple. Test scores are pretty valuable. The subjective aspects of different schools are tough to evaluate in a reasonable amount of time. City-Data forums help with this a lot. For example, it would be difficult to gauge how well the principle works with the staff for a whole bunch of different schools. It would take a lot of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebagirl
Keep in mind that just because a school receives a rating of 6 doesn't mean the teachers are less hard-working or dedicated.
True.
The ratings are based on test-scores. . .period. If the area has a number of immigrants constantly coming in, that will adversely affect test scores.
So, to most people, would better mean schools with less immigrants that could slow down the classroom instruction? If yes, then test scores are valuable.
If parents are too busy to read and work with their children, that too will make a negative difference.
So, to most people, would better mean going to school with kids whose parents care and are proactive? If yes, then test scores are valuable.
Kids who cannot pay attention, have personal issues at home, etc. also do not test well.
Might that affect the other kids? Again, this would be reflected in the test scores and provide an indicator of the environment the other kids would be in.
Not even sure I'd ever want them at a school that receives a "10" because all of the instruction would be test-driven.
Are the 10 schools anymore test driven than the 7 schools or the 4 schools? Don't the schools have to basically play by the same rules?
Test scores are highly correlated with parental SES. High test scores tell you where the affluent parents live. That's pretty much "it". They don't tell you how your child will do at a particular school. They don't tell you whether the school has any special programs, enrichment, etc.
I think you are too concerned about the other kids slowing your kids down. Your kids are young. As they get older, you will understand this more. Kids learn at their own rates, and it is difficult, if not impossible, for someone else to pull them down. I have grown more sure of this as my kids have gotten older. That is why some districts are paying attention to "disaggregated" scores. In other words, a school may have a great score overall, but some group, e.g. English Language Learners, low-income kids, whoever, may have a very low score.
Some schools put more emphasis on test preparation than others. There is ample evidence of that. Since scores are so related to SES, many of the kids at these high-scoring schools will learn no matter who is teaching or how it is taught. So high scores are not a measure of teacher quality or quality teaching methods.
Sorry about the icon. I didn't notice it till I posted, and now I can't get it off. Must have hit a key by accident.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 02-03-2008 at 02:15 PM..
Reason: Explain icon, typo
In my recent search for a house, I visited a stack of schools. One school was rated a '10' and was highly thought of among parents. I was horrified. the emphasis of the school was solely on testing. it was totally grim. no way I'd send my child there, but it was one of the schools that people really wanted to get into. *shudder*
a lot has to do with the way my child is (bright and internally driven). I can imagine that there'd be a child that would do well in that rigid environment, but I certainly didn't feel it was the right place for my child.
schools are very different, and each classroom is different. some teachers use lots of computer time while others spend more time on more creative activities. my short introduction to 21st century schools in the past two months has been a real eye opener - I'm just glad I quit my job so I can be involved in her schooling. it looks to be a full-time job, lol.
anyway, this is my longwinded way of saying that once you narrow down to districts, then visit a few of the schools just to see if they're what you want- the top schools and the middle ranked schools as well. it also helped me to read a few books to see what's happened since No Child Left Behind. it's a different world out there.
My comments in "mimeograph" purple. Test scores are pretty valuable. The subjective aspects of different schools are tough to evaluate in a reasonable amount of time. City-Data forums help with this a lot. For example, it would be difficult to gauge how well the principle works with the staff for a whole bunch of different schools. It would take a lot of time.
Test scores and accountability are, and have always been, important in education. However, there has been a shift in recent years in which teachers are forced to focus almost solely on the almighty test scores. The activities that help develop the whole child, such as music, P.E, art, hands-on science are falling by the wayside because there isn't enough time in the day to get in all of the core curriculum. There is a constant push, push, push--and in my opinion--it is not going to benefit our children in the long run. It's difficult to explain unless you've been in education for quite some time and have experienced what it's like to truly teach--not read from a script that a text-book company has deemed the "right" way to teach. Believe me, Charles--we do gauge just about everything possible. We have informal assessments, formal assessments, documentation, state testing, etc. All of this information is extremely valuable. My concern, however, is that too many teachers are pressured into thinking that the only way to teach is to the test. It eliminates creativity and assumes that all children learn in the same manner. Kids need hands-on activities--not just paper/pencil, fill in the bubble below. My opinions are based on 8 years working at a preschool, as well as over 15 years teaching K, 1st and 2nd grades in California (and being a mom). I love to teach, but I didn't go through years of college to read scripted lessons and administer tests. It's about reaching kids, building rapport and trust, and meeting their individual needs in whatever way is necessary for the learning to click.
I agree. all those nifty things that spark a kid's interest in learning are disappearing. remember field trips? they're now a thing of the past, except for the truly rich school districts, and even those are limited. I remember my 4th grade teacher spent the summer in hawai'i with her daughter and came back to spend most of the school year learning all about hawai'i. we ended the year with a luau (at which my dad, a chef, cooked a huge pig over a spit, lol) and the 4th grade girls had learned to hula and gave a performance. it was so neat that I remember it 35 years later. the time she invested in teaching us all about aspects of hawai'i, their arts, crafts, music, food (we even tasted poi), cultures, history, etc was beyond incredible and mostly on her dime btw. in today's environment of testing, testing, testing, she would never have had the time to spend on such a unit.
I was always interested in history and other cultures, eventually became an anthropologist. my teachers in elementary school took the time to feed that interest, even my art teachers, by teaching us about the Bayeux tapestry (and having us each decorate one panel of the tapestry and hang it around the classroom), in art we made carvings of prehistoric art from clay, etc. I'm afraid that in this day and age, the only kids who will find their interests stimulated in school will be those whose parents send them to certain private schools or those who can afford to attend special summer camps or other supplemental programs. Teacher burnout, I suspect, will increase as teachers realize this isn't what they wanted to do when they joined the profession, and students will drop out when they find school depressingly boring and rigid.
I think you will find the Colorado schools a little different from your bleak description of today's schools. My kids have been long out of elementary school, so I don't know about the field trips, but there certainly is art, music and PE in the curriculum at all age levels.
^ This is true pittnurse. My kids (2nd and 3rd grade) go to McKinley-Thatcher in Denver which i think is rated a 6 by greatschools. But, they do have art class every week, PE 2 or 3 times per week (depending on scheduling) and music twice a week -- and all of those classes are with teachers that specialize in those areas (the music teacher is absolutely amazing). They also have recess every day! Yay! They also have field trips, both of my kids have been on two so far this school year. McK-Thatcher has a program called SPREE -- South Platte River Environmental Education -- so that was the focus on a field trip to the South Platte River (Confluence Park):
On the trolley that runs along the river
So although the school is not the highest rated and Denver Public Schools not the most highly regarded we have been happy with what they provide in terms of these type of classes. We have had issues with DPS for our older son (the 3rd grader) but that is a whole different topic because he is not a "typical" student (he is autistic).
When we were in Florida though, we did have the problems that LisaCACO mentions... everything seemed to be taught for the FCAT (Florida version of the CSAP), there was no music class/teacher, no PE, no recess, and if they occasionally did an art project it was with the homeroom teacher.
I think you will find the Colorado schools a little different from your bleak description of today's schools. My kids have been long out of elementary school, so I don't know about the field trips, but there certainly is art, music and PE in the curriculum at all age levels.
I wish I agreed with you, Pittnurse. We're more than half-way through the year, and my third-grader has yet to go on a field-trip. (As I recall, there was only one in her second-grade year) despite many excellent opportunities to explore local offerings that correlate to the curriculum.
Her class studied the solar system this year, and I would have thought a trip to the science museum was in order, but no such luck. We did it ourselves. They did a huge unit on Native Americans and could have visited the exhibit at the Natural History Museum, but that didn't happen either. So, again, we did it ourselves. The fifth graders at our school are studying Jamestown, and there's an excellent program and display at the Wildlife Experience in Parker. Are they going? No again, but the entire school has been drilling, drilling, drilling for CSAPs for months.
Art, science, & social studies education have been perfunctory at best. The only good special has been music, mostly because she has a delightfully enthusiastic teacher, but even then it's hardly been outstanding. I live in the wealthiest county in Colorado, and our local elementary is exceptionally well-funded. Many people think it's the best school district in the state. Maybe I expect too much?
In my recent search for a house, I visited a stack of schools. One school was rated a '10' and was highly thought of among parents. I was horrified. the emphasis of the school was solely on testing.
How could you tell the 10 school emphasized testing over the other schools?
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